Posted on 02/25/2004 11:52:26 AM PST by 4CJ
THOMASVILLE -- Nelson Winbush knows his voice isn't likely to be heard above the crowd that writes American history books. That doesn't keep him from speaking his mind, however.
A 75-year-old black man whose grandfather proudly fought in the gray uniform of the South during the Civil War, Winbush addressed a group of about 40 at the Thomas County Museum of History Sunday afternoon. To say the least, his perspective of the war differs greatly from what is taught in America's classrooms today.
"People have manufactured a lot of mistruths about why the war took place," he said. "It wasn't about slavery. It was about state's rights and tariffs."
Many of Winbush's words were reserved for the Confederate battle flag, which still swirls amid controversy more than 150 years after it originally flew.
"This flag has been lied about more than any flag in the world," Winbush said. "People see it and they don't really know what the hell they are looking at."
About midway through his 90-minute presentation, Winbush's comments were issued with extra force.
"This flag is the one that draped my grandfathers' coffin," he said while clutching it strongly in his left hand. "I would shudder to think what would happen if somebody tried to do something to this particular flag."
Winbush, a retired in educator and Korean War veteran who resides in Kissimmee, Fla., said the Confederate battle flag has been hijacked by racist groups, prompting unwarranted criticism from its detractors.
"This flag had nothing to with the (Ku Klux) klan or skinheads," he said while wearing a necktie that featured the Confederate emblem. "They weren't even heard of then. It was just a guide to follow in battle.
"That's all it ever was."
Winbush said Confederate soldiers started using the flag with the St. Andrews cross because its original flag closely resembled the U.S. flag. The first Confederate flag's blue patch in an upper corner and its alternating red and white stripes caused confusion on the battlefield, he said.
"Neither side (of the debate) knows what the flag represents," Winbush said. "It's dumb and dumber. You can turn it around, but it's still two dumb bunches.
"If you learn anything else today, don't be dumb."
Winbush learned about the Civil War at the knee of Louis Napoleon Nelson, who joined his master and one of his master's sons in battle voluntarily when he was 14. Nelson saw combat at Lookout Mountain, Bryson's Crossroads, Shiloh and Vicksburg.
"At Shiloh, my grandfather served as a chaplain even though he couldn't read or write," said Winbush, who bolstered his points with photos, letters and newspapers that used to belong to his grandfather. "I've never heard of a black Yankee holding such an office, so that makes him a little different."
Winbush said his grandfather, who also served as a "scavenger," never had any qualms about fighting for the South. He had plenty of chances to make a break for freedom, but never did. He attended 39 Confederate reunions, the final one in 1934. A Sons of Confederate Veterans Chapter in Tennessee is named after him.
"People ask why a black person would fight for the Confederacy. (It was) for the same damned reason a white Southerner did," Winbush explained.
Winbush said Southern blacks and whites often lived together as extended families., adding slaves and slave owners were outraged when Union forces raided their homes. He said history books rarely make mention of this.
"When the master and his older sons went to war, who did he leave his families with?" asked Winbush, who grandfather remained with his former owners 12 years after the hostilities ended. "It was with the slaves. Were his (family members) mistreated? Hell, no!
"They were protected."
Winbush said more than 90,000 blacks, some of them free, fought for the Confederacy. He has said in the past that he would have fought by his grandfather's side in the 7th Tennessee Cavalry led by Gen. Nathan Bedford Forest.
After his presentation, Winbush opened the floor for questions. Two black women, including Jule Anderson of the Thomas County Historical Society Board of Directors, told him the Confederate battle flag made them uncomfortable.
Winbush, who said he started speaking out about the Civil War in 1992 after growing weary of what he dubbed "political correctness," was also challenged about his opinions.
"I have difficulty in trying to apply today's standards with what happened 150 years ago," he said to Anderson's tearful comments. "...That's what a lot of people are attempting to do. I'm just presenting facts, not as I read from some book where somebody thought that they understood. This came straight from the horse's mouth, and I refute anybody to deny that."
Thomas County Historical Society Board member and SVC member Chip Bragg moved in to close the session after it took a political turn when a white audience member voiced disapproval of the use of Confederate symbols on the state flag. Georgia voters are set to go to the polls a week from today to pick a flag to replace the 1956 version, which featured the St. Andrew's cross prominently.
"Those of us who are serious about our Confederate heritage are very unhappy with the trivialization of Confederate symbols and their misuse," he said. "Part of what we are trying to do is correct this misunderstanding."
I was laughing at the fact the slaveowners didn't succed. If I would've meant the soldiers, I would've said so. I said "states" not "soldiers".
What are you laughing about? 110,070 Union combat deaths? 249,458 other Union deaths? 275,175 Union wounded? 634,703 Union casualties? Perhaps 74,524 Confederate combat deaths make you laugh? 124,000 other Confederate deaths? 137,000 Confederate wounded? 335,524 Confederate casualties? Perhaps a combined 970,227 American casualties makes you laugh.
You're a liar. I clearly said "states". You on the other hand took glee in the KIA specifically.
Another point that proved I was correct.
Au contraire. Thousands did occur, as Dr. Lowry noted, thousands were under the other categories. IIRC, Edward Steers Jr, author of Blood on the Moon: The Assassination of Abraham Lincoln stated in a program on C-SPAM (sic) (Booknotes?) that almost 20,000 of the courts-martial were for rape/sexual assaults. Whether or not you choose to believe their years of research is out of my control. Not all crimes are reported and investigated, but even after posting documentation from multiple sources you still refused to believe the Justice of the Georgia Supreme Court was hung, despite his personal account of the incident.
Secessionists got near 100% [of the vote]. Proves who was allowed to attend and who wasn't. No wonder Texas' own Governer called it illegal.
Please stop making this stuff up. The vote was nowhere near 100%. Even then, Dale Baum writes,
"Most were former Whigs, Know-Nothings, or Houston supporters who boycotted the referendum balloting because they considered it unauthorized or believed their chances of preventing secession were hopeless."
Dale Baum, The Shattering of Texas Unionism: Politics in the Lone Star State During the Civil War Era, Baton Rouge, LA: Louisiana State University Press (1998), p. 45
"The allegations, made at the time by unionists and often repeated subsequently, that Texas secessionists coerced and silenced many voters or miscounted the votes to their advantage, were often sweeping and intensely emotional charges supported with little, if any, solid evidence. Typical of the generalized, but largely unsubstantiated, accusations were the charges made by unionist refugees that "many" of the reported secessionist majorities were "false" and that threats and intimidation caused "thousands" of anti-secessionists to vote for secession or not vote at all."
Ibid., p. 58
"Evidence showing precisely where and how secessionists fraudulently smothered unionist sentiment remains not only impressionistic, but also uncorroborated."My prior post by Baum (#889) shows the opposite - that fraudulent results were obtained by unionists in Uvalde County among others.
Ibid., p. 59
That explains the Yankee Dahlgren was ordered to to the Confederate capital to destroy it and "Jeff. Davis and Cabinet killed". Assassins will burn in hell.
Although I suppose one could put together an argument that women in combat roles is an affront to creation.
You only came up with 350 courts martial for sexual assaults. You're just out and out lying now. Just like you guys lied about people being shot for voting for McClellan in New York.
Please stop making this stuff up. The vote was nowhere near 100%. Even then, Dale Baum writes, "Most were former Whigs, Know-Nothings, or Houston supporters who boycotted the referendum balloting because they considered it unauthorized or believed their chances of preventing secession were hopeless." Dale Baum, The Shattering of Texas Unionism: Politics in the Lone Star State During the Civil War Era, Baton Rouge, LA: Louisiana State University Press (1998), p. 45 "The allegations, made at the time by unionists and often repeated subsequently, that Texas secessionists coerced and silenced many voters or miscounted the votes to their advantage, were often sweeping and intensely emotional charges supported with little, if any, solid evidence. Typical of the generalized, but largely unsubstantiated, accusations were the charges made by unionist refugees that "many" of the reported secessionist majorities were "false" and that threats and intimidation caused "thousands" of anti-secessionists to vote for secession or not vote at all." Ibid., p. 58 "Evidence showing precisely where and how secessionists fraudulently smothered unionist sentiment remains not only impressionistic, but also uncorroborated." Ibid., p. 59 My prior post by Baum (#889) shows the opposite - that fraudulent results were obtained by unionists in Uvalde County among others.
At the conventions they got near 100%. It was a sham and in violation of Article IV Section 4.
Read Romans. As to war, God sanctions war in many places in the bible and actually told the Israelites to kill every man, woman, and child in some cases. So the south had it easy in just losing material possessions.
Although I suppose one could put together an argument that women in combat roles is an affront to creation.
God also sanctioned female combatants.
The 350 number was for those found guilty of the specific charge of RAPE, An additiional 11,834 were for Section 134 offenses such as Assault-indecent, Assault with intent to commit rape, Assault with intent to commit sodomy, Indecent acts or liberties with a child, and/or Indecent acts with another.
Lowry noted that such charges were not normally levied if the victim was a slave.
At the conventions they got near 100%. It was a sham and in violation of Article IV Section 4.
Where specifically in Article IV or Federal Law does it state that ANY election obtaining near unanimous results are invalid? Are 9-0 court decisions invalid?
Confederate Lt. Gen. E. Kirby Smith surrendered his forces 26 May 1865. The last land battle was a Confederate victory at Palmito Ranch, TX 12/13 May 1865.
Confederate Brig. Gen. Stand Watie surrendered his troops 23 Jun 1865.
The war was not over in April, thus according to your logic, Booth was NOT an assassin.
Only in #3World where you reside.
You say "offenses such as", so that could be as little as two. Being that they used a charge of "rape" for rape, 350 is all you have and that's for the whole war. You have a bad habit of exaggerating, just as when you said McClellan voters would be shot for their vote.
Lowry noted that such charges were not normally levied if the victim was a slave.
Still you have no number besides the 350 for the whole war. If there were only 350 for the whole war, then there wasn't very many for Sherman's army, slaves or not.
Where specifically in Article IV or Federal Law does it state that ANY election obtaining near unanimous results are invalid? Are 9-0 court decisions invalid?
The people deciding the fate of Texas were not elected in the Republican fashion of the rest of the country in violation of Article IV, Section 4. It was a coup.
Yeah and some Japanese soldiers stranded on islands didn't surrender till the seventies. The was was over and Booth knew it. He was a murderer and assassins will burn in hell. You love these murdererous assassins so much, is Hinckley also a hero of yours? Squeaky Fromme?
Only one section of the Constitution will not independently support federal question jurisdiction, because its connection with plaintiff's claim is not sufficiently direct to satisfy the "arising under" requirement. The Full Faith and Credit Clause [28] has been held to mandate only a rule of decision for state or federal courts when they encounter a question of the law or some aspect of the judicial proceedings of another state; [29] if the Clause were permitted to serve as a basis for federal jurisdiction, the result would be to open the federal courts to every action to enforce a state statute or judgment in another state. [30]28. U.S. Const. Art. IV, § 1.
29. Minnesota v. Northern Sec. Co., 194 U.S. 48, 72, 24 S.Ct. 598, 605, 48 L.Ed. 870 (1904).
30. California ex rel. McColgan v. Bruce, 129 F.2d 421, 424 (9th Cir.1942).
31. Verlinden B.V. v. Central Bank of Nigeria, 461 U.S. 480, 103 S.Ct. 1962, 76 L.Ed.2d 81 (1983); Montana-Dakota Utilities Co. v. Northwestern Pub. Serv. Co., 341 U.S. 246, 249, 71 S.Ct. 692, 694, 95 L.Ed. 912 (1951).
Minnesota v. Northern Sec. Co., 194 U.S. 48, 72, 24 S.Ct. 598, 605, 48 L.Ed. 870 (1904).
This, it is contended, presents a case arising under article 4 of the Constitution, providing that 'full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state.' It is said by the state's counsel that the 'gravamen of the charge in appellant's complaint is that the defendants created a corporate device in New Jersey, and used it for the purpose and with the result that property rights in Minnesota were affected, in violation of its laws. Our contention is that article 4 must be so construed as to make the constitutional enactments of Minnesota effective throughout the United States, so far as they apply to and affect property rights within the state. Otherwise the policy and laws of any state may be easily evaded.' We do not think that the clause of the Constitution above quoted has any bearing whatever upon the question under consideration. It only prescribes a rule by which courts, Federal and state, are to be guided when a question arises in the progress of a pending suit as to the faith and credit to be given by the court to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of a state other than that in which the court is sitting. Even if it be assumed that the word 'acts' includes 'statutes,' the clause has nothing to do with the conduct of individuals or corporations; and to invoke the rule which it prescribes does not make a case arising under the Constitution or laws of the United States.
If you say so.
SOURCE:
[1] Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary
COUP. a brilliant, sudden, and usu. highly successful stroke or act.
[2] Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary
COUP. a brilliant, sudden, and usually highly successful stroke or act.
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