An opposing view: Descendant of black Confederate soldier speaks at museum

Thomasville Times-Enterprise ^ | 24 Feb 2004 | Mark Lastinger

[4CJ]

THOMASVILLE -- Nelson Winbush knows his voice isn't likely to be heard above the crowd that writes American history books. That doesn't keep him from speaking his mind, however.

A 75-year-old black man whose grandfather proudly fought in the gray uniform of the South during the Civil War, Winbush addressed a group of about 40 at the Thomas County Museum of History Sunday afternoon. To say the least, his perspective of the war differs greatly from what is taught in America's classrooms today.

"People have manufactured a lot of mistruths about why the war took place," he said. "It wasn't about slavery. It was about state's rights and tariffs."

Many of Winbush's words were reserved for the Confederate battle flag, which still swirls amid controversy more than 150 years after it originally flew.

"This flag has been lied about more than any flag in the world," Winbush said. "People see it and they don't really know what the hell they are looking at."

About midway through his 90-minute presentation, Winbush's comments were issued with extra force.

"This flag is the one that draped my grandfathers' coffin," he said while clutching it strongly in his left hand. "I would shudder to think what would happen if somebody tried to do something to this particular flag."

Winbush, a retired in educator and Korean War veteran who resides in Kissimmee, Fla., said the Confederate battle flag has been hijacked by racist groups, prompting unwarranted criticism from its detractors.

"This flag had nothing to with the (Ku Klux) klan or skinheads," he said while wearing a necktie that featured the Confederate emblem. "They weren't even heard of then. It was just a guide to follow in battle.

"That's all it ever was."

Winbush said Confederate soldiers started using the flag with the St. Andrews cross because its original flag closely resembled the U.S. flag. The first Confederate flag's blue patch in an upper corner and its alternating red and white stripes caused confusion on the battlefield, he said.

"Neither side (of the debate) knows what the flag represents," Winbush said. "It's dumb and dumber. You can turn it around, but it's still two dumb bunches.

"If you learn anything else today, don't be dumb."

Winbush learned about the Civil War at the knee of Louis Napoleon Nelson, who joined his master and one of his master's sons in battle voluntarily when he was 14. Nelson saw combat at Lookout Mountain, Bryson's Crossroads, Shiloh and Vicksburg.

"At Shiloh, my grandfather served as a chaplain even though he couldn't read or write," said Winbush, who bolstered his points with photos, letters and newspapers that used to belong to his grandfather. "I've never heard of a black Yankee holding such an office, so that makes him a little different."

Winbush said his grandfather, who also served as a "scavenger," never had any qualms about fighting for the South. He had plenty of chances to make a break for freedom, but never did. He attended 39 Confederate reunions, the final one in 1934. A Sons of Confederate Veterans Chapter in Tennessee is named after him.

"People ask why a black person would fight for the Confederacy. (It was) for the same damned reason a white Southerner did," Winbush explained.

Winbush said Southern blacks and whites often lived together as extended families., adding slaves and slave owners were outraged when Union forces raided their homes. He said history books rarely make mention of this.

"When the master and his older sons went to war, who did he leave his families with?" asked Winbush, who grandfather remained with his former owners 12 years after the hostilities ended. "It was with the slaves. Were his (family members) mistreated? Hell, no!

"They were protected."

Winbush said more than 90,000 blacks, some of them free, fought for the Confederacy. He has said in the past that he would have fought by his grandfather's side in the 7th Tennessee Cavalry led by Gen. Nathan Bedford Forest.

After his presentation, Winbush opened the floor for questions. Two black women, including Jule Anderson of the Thomas County Historical Society Board of Directors, told him the Confederate battle flag made them uncomfortable.

Winbush, who said he started speaking out about the Civil War in 1992 after growing weary of what he dubbed "political correctness," was also challenged about his opinions.

"I have difficulty in trying to apply today's standards with what happened 150 years ago," he said to Anderson's tearful comments. "...That's what a lot of people are attempting to do. I'm just presenting facts, not as I read from some book where somebody thought that they understood. This came straight from the horse's mouth, and I refute anybody to deny that."

Thomas County Historical Society Board member and SVC member Chip Bragg moved in to close the session after it took a political turn when a white audience member voiced disapproval of the use of Confederate symbols on the state flag. Georgia voters are set to go to the polls a week from today to pick a flag to replace the 1956 version, which featured the St. Andrew's cross prominently.

"Those of us who are serious about our Confederate heritage are very unhappy with the trivialization of Confederate symbols and their misuse," he said. "Part of what we are trying to do is correct this misunderstanding."

[Gianni]

oops... the 30 is the 500lb variant. I knew there was a reason for that preview pane.

[4CJ]

These "fighting sailors" were assisted by Viking gunships armed with the original 6th Century AD Viking Tomahawk missile.

Effective range of what, 100 feet? Against a fort? This thread is very, very entertaining, and educational ;o)

I'm going to have to throw away ALL my history books </sarcasm>

[nolu chan]

LINK

With the exception of the men-of-war and tugs, the whole expedition was to be complete on board the steamer Baltic, and its success depended upon the possibility of running past batteries at night, which were distant from the center of the channel 1,300 yards. I depended upon the barbette guns of Sumter to keep the channel between Morris and Sullivan's islands clear of rebel vessels at the time of entering.

Fox Report, February 24, 1865, at page 246 of the records.

As you can see, the plan was to sneak between the batteries which would then be 1,300 yards to either side, or approximately three-fourths of a mile.

Prior to the attack, homing pigeons had been obtained from the location of each battery. The plan was to release kamikaze homing pigeons with attached grenades set to go off on impact. The plan would have worked but the pigeons were not used to the sake they were given during prep for flight launch and they all lost their bearings and flew south to Pensacola. This was reported by "Fleet Admiral" Fox to be due to unexpected but successful Confederate countermeasures, but this is not true.

Of course, the tugs did not get there. These were to be armed with three batteries of guns capable of destroying the cliffs at Navarone.

This brilliant gunship tug design of "Fleet Admiral" Fox was later used to create battleships.

The 16-inch guns mounted on these tugs had remarkable range and effectiveness for a gun with a barrel that was only one-foot, four-inches long. This was aided by a computer guidance system.

The munitions were perfected during the war of 1812 when they caught an alligator and filled his mouth with cannonballs and powdered his behind. This particular method had to be abandoned because of complications. When they set the powder off, the gator lost his mind and PETA filed a complaint. However, the powder design itself was a huge success. It was lamented that these formidible fighting tugs were not available.

Thus, they were forced to consider the armed and fortified stealth rowboats. These carried three turrrets with 3 armed Viking warriors. The main battery was Hillary Clinton strapped to the forecastle emitting a banshee screech which turned enemy fighting sailors into pillars of salt. This was to disable rebel vessels in the channel. This plan was foiled by Confederates who created a Rush Limbaugh clone to drown her out.

This left the Armed Vikings with their Tomahawk missiles, and the fighting sailors shooting muskets from a rolling rowboat in stormy seas, at a target three-quarters of a mile away.

Unfortunately, nobody planned on the shore batteries being able to reduce the fort to rubble in 48 hours. It had been thought that the PATRIOT Anti-Missile system would shoot down all the Confederate SOVEREIGNTY missiles, but the system proved less than 100% effective. It was subsequently determined that insufficient funding had hampered research and development. This was addressed by implementing a huge central government, new forms of taxation such as the Income Tax, and funding research and development in every congressman's district.

[4CJ]

This particular method had to be abandoned because of complications. When they set the powder off, the gator lost his mind and PETA filed a complaint.

Horton would be proud! I can see it now, thousands of kamikaze homing pigeons released from the three tugs towing the three ship toward the island. The massive 1'4" guns would destroy the Confederates/Charleston in a matter of years, the 300 Vikings each swimming ashore with a days ration ...

Bwahahahahahahahaha!

[Colt .45]

I know what you mean about dwills and #3 fan, a couple of elitist boneheaded Yankees. I told dwills to change his sreen name to dweeb because that is about as much as he knows about the Constitution and Founders' intent. They are the ones who give me cause to wonder why I spent all those years to protect their dumb asses.

A return thanks for your service brother and you and I both know what liberty means.

O God of battles! steel my soldiers' hearts;
Possess them not with fear; take from them now
The sense of reckoning, if the opposed numbers
Pluck their hearts from them

I would not lose so great an honour
As one man more, methinks, would share from me
For the best hope I have. O, do not wish one more!
Rather proclaim it, Westmoreland, through my host,
That he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made
And crowns for convoy put into his purse:
We would not die in that man's company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.

This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remember'd;
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition:
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day. - Henry V, Shakespeare

[#3Fan]

I know what you mean about dwills and #3 fan, a couple of elitist boneheaded Yankees.

What are you mad about?

I told dwills to change his sreen name to dweeb because that is about as much as he knows about the Constitution and Founders' intent. They are the ones who give me cause to wonder why I spent all those years to protect their dumb asses.

Next time don't bother if all you're going to do is use it for the rest of your life to bang people over the head with like Hanoi Kerry does.

[Colt .45]

"Next time don't bother if all you're going to do is use it for the rest of your life to bang people over the head with like Hanoi Kerry does."

Are you speaking of "In another life"? Since I've retired from active duty I seriously doubt I would have to bother "next time". No I don't beat people over the head with it, but you I might consider doing that.

Tu urbanus vero scurra, deliciae populi. Merus stupor!

[#3Fan]

Are you speaking of "In another life"?

Sure, we got another life coming. 1000 years of it. Don't bother saving me in that one, I don't need it from you. I don't want to hear 1000 years of complaining, 50 years of it is bad enough here.

Since I've retired from active duty I seriously doubt I would have to bother "next time". No I don't beat people over the head with it,...

You do just like Kerry does. The heros I respect are those that fight for their country, not those that fight to give themselves something to bang people over the head with or to win elections.

...but you I might consider doing that.

A natural instinct of those that don't have facts on their side. Those without truth rage against those that do have wisdom and truth.

[#3Fan]

Second, it is not a logical construct that the Constitution, while speaking to the subject of the formation and regulation of certain state activities, is by insinuation or inference therefore empowered to regulate other state activities such as secession.

It's illogical to think that there was no right of the staying states to seek separation terms. Seceding states stole property bought and paid for partially by the staying states. They should've followed Article IV in their attempt to secede.

[Colt .45]

" They should've followed Article IV in their attempt to secede."

It depends on where you think the seat of power lies - does it lay with the government or the people?! Where did the Founders say that it laid? "Governments are created by consent of the governed."

Quod minimum specimen in te ingenii? Vin iam faciam ut stultividum esse tu te fateare?

As for your comparing me to Kerry, you really are the quintessential cretin! I served honorably, didn't stab my fellow veterans in the back like he did. As for your disparaging remarks about not wanting me to defend you, no worries there pal - I wouldn't dream of it. I don't make it a habit of going to bat twice for rat ba*tards!

Non tu tibi istam praetruncari linguam largiloquam iubes?

[Non-Sequitur]

Hi, GOP. Get yourself banned?

[#3Fan]

It depends on where you think the seat of power lies - does it lay with the government or the people?! Where did the Founders say that it laid? "Governments are created by consent of the governed."

Any state that agreed to the Constitution agreed to follows it's laws.

As for your comparing me to Kerry, you really are the quintessential cretin! I served honorably, didn't stab my fellow veterans in the back like he did.

Never said you didn't. You resemble Kerry in that you use your service to bash others simplemindedly though. I respect those that served to serve their country, not those that served just to bash others.

As for your disparaging remarks about not wanting me to defend you, no worries there pal - I wouldn't dream of it. I don't make it a habit of going to bat twice for rat ba*tards!

You're the last person I need any help from. I want support from the just, not the unjust. Any support from the unjust is an abomination. Better to die than to be saved by the unjust. As I said, you remind me of Kerry, who is a rat bastard, in that you complain, complain, complain now. I respect those that served not to complain, but to defend their country pureheartedly.

[Gianni]

As I said, you remind me of Kerry, who is a rat bastard, in that you complain, complain, complain now. I respect those that served not to complain, but to defend their country pureheartedly

While honoring and respecting our servicepeople may not be a cornerstone of conservative thought, it is something that conservatives habitually do. This is because we are smarter than dimwit idiots who denegrate those who protect our lives, preserve our freedoms, and represent our best hopes for a better world. Yes, that even includes Kerry, who's service we can respect in spite of our distaste for his other actions.

You are a frog who hopes that a kiss from a princess will magically elevate him to the level of troll. While others respond with rage, know that you have my pity.

Good night from the heartland... Gianni out.

[#3Fan]

While honoring and respecting our servicepeople may not be a cornerstone of conservative thought, it is something that conservatives habitually do. This is because we are smarter than dimwit idiots who denegrate those who protect our lives, preserve our freedoms, and represent our best hopes for a better world. Yes, that even includes Kerry, who's service we can respect in spite of our distaste for his other actions.

Respect faking three wounds? Respect getting out on a technicality? Respect writing himself medals? Respect giving himself a medal when it was his machine-gunner that killed the mortar launcher? He went over there just to get some pictures taken in a boat so he could pose like Kennedy and was surprised when the swift boat's mission got redefined, and then complained that the swift boats shouldn't engage the enemy. Sorry, I don't respect that.

You are a frog who hopes that a kiss from a princess will magically elevate him to the level of troll. While others respond with rage, know that you have my pity.

You're pro-slaver.

[Colt .45]

"You resemble Kerry in that you use your service to bash others simplemindedly though. I respect those that served to serve their country, not those that served just to bash others."

I served out of a sense of duty! You wouldn't know anything about honor, duty, and the higher ideals. You are a mindless puppet who loves to slander those who at least gave of themselves for a higher ideal. Go back and study your Constitutional debates as I said before. Come back and talk with me when you grow a brain.

"Duty is the most sublime word in our language. Do your duty in all things. You cannot do more. You should never wish to do less."

"A true man of honor feels humbled himself when he cannot help humbling others." And I feel a little humble right now! Not because of anything you've said though.

[#3Fan]

I served out of a sense of duty! You wouldn't know anything about honor, duty, and the higher ideals.

You don't seem to know anything about those either that you complain, complain, complain now. If you served for a sense of duty, why are you complaining now?

You are a mindless puppet who loves to slander those who at least gave of themselves for a higher ideal.

What higher ideal? It seems to me that you served for the same reason Kerry served.

Go back and study your Constitutional debates as I said before. Come back and talk with me when you grow a brain.

I went back to our first posts to each other on this thread to try to see why you're so angry at me and in your first posts to me you raged and I hadn't even made any statements to you besides factual, analytical statements. This tells me that you can't have intelligent conversations. You hear truth and you rage.

"Duty is the most sublime word in our language. Do your duty in all things. You cannot do more. You should never wish to do less."

Part of duty is to hold true to purpose. If you ever had a sense of duty, you certainly shed it and have taken on the same purpose Kerry has taken, to bash and complain.

"A true man of honor feels humbled himself when he cannot help humbling others." And I feel a little humble right now! Not because of anything you've said though.

You have shown no humbleness on this thread. All you've done is toot your own horn. I've always thought that if you have to toot your own horn, there may not be that much to toot over.

[GOPcapitalist]

Hi, GOP. Get yourself banned?

Who did you think you were talking to, Non-Seq?

[nolu chan]

Pictured is the only award #3 will ever earn. It is the Pain in the Ass (PITA) Medal. He aspires to earn a poison oak leaf cluster.