An opposing view: Descendant of black Confederate soldier speaks at museum

Thomasville Times-Enterprise ^ | 24 Feb 2004 | Mark Lastinger

[4CJ]

THOMASVILLE -- Nelson Winbush knows his voice isn't likely to be heard above the crowd that writes American history books. That doesn't keep him from speaking his mind, however.

A 75-year-old black man whose grandfather proudly fought in the gray uniform of the South during the Civil War, Winbush addressed a group of about 40 at the Thomas County Museum of History Sunday afternoon. To say the least, his perspective of the war differs greatly from what is taught in America's classrooms today.

"People have manufactured a lot of mistruths about why the war took place," he said. "It wasn't about slavery. It was about state's rights and tariffs."

Many of Winbush's words were reserved for the Confederate battle flag, which still swirls amid controversy more than 150 years after it originally flew.

"This flag has been lied about more than any flag in the world," Winbush said. "People see it and they don't really know what the hell they are looking at."

About midway through his 90-minute presentation, Winbush's comments were issued with extra force.

"This flag is the one that draped my grandfathers' coffin," he said while clutching it strongly in his left hand. "I would shudder to think what would happen if somebody tried to do something to this particular flag."

Winbush, a retired in educator and Korean War veteran who resides in Kissimmee, Fla., said the Confederate battle flag has been hijacked by racist groups, prompting unwarranted criticism from its detractors.

"This flag had nothing to with the (Ku Klux) klan or skinheads," he said while wearing a necktie that featured the Confederate emblem. "They weren't even heard of then. It was just a guide to follow in battle.

"That's all it ever was."

Winbush said Confederate soldiers started using the flag with the St. Andrews cross because its original flag closely resembled the U.S. flag. The first Confederate flag's blue patch in an upper corner and its alternating red and white stripes caused confusion on the battlefield, he said.

"Neither side (of the debate) knows what the flag represents," Winbush said. "It's dumb and dumber. You can turn it around, but it's still two dumb bunches.

"If you learn anything else today, don't be dumb."

Winbush learned about the Civil War at the knee of Louis Napoleon Nelson, who joined his master and one of his master's sons in battle voluntarily when he was 14. Nelson saw combat at Lookout Mountain, Bryson's Crossroads, Shiloh and Vicksburg.

"At Shiloh, my grandfather served as a chaplain even though he couldn't read or write," said Winbush, who bolstered his points with photos, letters and newspapers that used to belong to his grandfather. "I've never heard of a black Yankee holding such an office, so that makes him a little different."

Winbush said his grandfather, who also served as a "scavenger," never had any qualms about fighting for the South. He had plenty of chances to make a break for freedom, but never did. He attended 39 Confederate reunions, the final one in 1934. A Sons of Confederate Veterans Chapter in Tennessee is named after him.

"People ask why a black person would fight for the Confederacy. (It was) for the same damned reason a white Southerner did," Winbush explained.

Winbush said Southern blacks and whites often lived together as extended families., adding slaves and slave owners were outraged when Union forces raided their homes. He said history books rarely make mention of this.

"When the master and his older sons went to war, who did he leave his families with?" asked Winbush, who grandfather remained with his former owners 12 years after the hostilities ended. "It was with the slaves. Were his (family members) mistreated? Hell, no!

"They were protected."

Winbush said more than 90,000 blacks, some of them free, fought for the Confederacy. He has said in the past that he would have fought by his grandfather's side in the 7th Tennessee Cavalry led by Gen. Nathan Bedford Forest.

After his presentation, Winbush opened the floor for questions. Two black women, including Jule Anderson of the Thomas County Historical Society Board of Directors, told him the Confederate battle flag made them uncomfortable.

Winbush, who said he started speaking out about the Civil War in 1992 after growing weary of what he dubbed "political correctness," was also challenged about his opinions.

"I have difficulty in trying to apply today's standards with what happened 150 years ago," he said to Anderson's tearful comments. "...That's what a lot of people are attempting to do. I'm just presenting facts, not as I read from some book where somebody thought that they understood. This came straight from the horse's mouth, and I refute anybody to deny that."

Thomas County Historical Society Board member and SVC member Chip Bragg moved in to close the session after it took a political turn when a white audience member voiced disapproval of the use of Confederate symbols on the state flag. Georgia voters are set to go to the polls a week from today to pick a flag to replace the 1956 version, which featured the St. Andrew's cross prominently.

"Those of us who are serious about our Confederate heritage are very unhappy with the trivialization of Confederate symbols and their misuse," he said. "Part of what we are trying to do is correct this misunderstanding."

[nolu chan]

#386 [nc] The "ship's men" needed arms to return fire expected from the shore batteries. Picture it in your mind and try not to snork coffee all over your keyboard.

#386 [#3Fan] Todays military ships do indeed have guns. What's so extraordinary about it?

What is extraordinary is your notion of issuing ship's guns to soldiers aboard ship.

Here is a look at a gun turret of the battleship, USS Iowa.

And here is a look at the guns. Try issuing one of these bad boys to a soldier and sending him up into the rigging. Now that would be an extraordinary sight.

Pictured is John Mullahy receiving the Navy and Marine Corps Medal, the highest award given for heroism in a noncombat situation following an explosion April 19, 1989 which claimed 47 lives.

Here are some links on the Mullahy story. Prior to the Iowa incident he had received a kangaroo court-martial in Rota, Spain.

Mullahy Presidential Citation for Valor

Mullahy: The Unsung Hero of the USS Iowa Explosion

Mullahy Court-Martial Outrage

[#3Fan]

Military ships that travel close to land need arms. The Vikings had arms, Vietnam boats had arms, Spanish ships that came to the New World had arms.

It doesn't matter anyway because you have yet to link me to the signed armistice so it's looking like there was no signed armistice to begin with.

[#3Fan]

All I can do is repeat that military ships that travel close to shore do indeed have arms. Vikings, Vietnam, and the Spaniards all had arms.

This argument is moot anyway because it looks like there was no signed armistice. Link me to the signed armistice if it exists.

[nolu chan]

#422 [#3Fan] Military ships that travel close to land need arms. The Vikings had arms, Vietnam boats had arms, Spanish ships that came to the New World had arms.

#423 [#3Fan] All I can do is repeat that military ships that travel close to shore do indeed have arms. Vikings, Vietnam, and the Spaniards all had arms.

Could you post a picture of a Viking rifle or cannon please?

Could you please post a picture of a signed copy of the battle plan which called for the Powhatan to travel close enough to the Charleston Harbor shore batteries to shoot at them with muskets?

Armed Viking:

[nolu chan]

#3Fan: What? Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!

Otter: Germans?

Boon: Forget it, he's rolling.

[Non-Sequitur]

You sure got the peanut gallery stirred up today, haven't you?

[#3Fan]

Could you post a picture of a Viking rifle or cannon please?

Where did I say cannon? I said arms.

Could you please post a picture of a signed copy of the battle plan which called for the Powhatan to travel close enough to the Charleston Harbor shore batteries to shoot at them with muskets?

The Star of the West was attacked. For such an attack close to land the men need arms. The argument is moot because you have not proven there was a signed armistice to begin with.

Link me to the signed armistice or admit you can't.

[#3Fan]

You sure got the peanut gallery stirred up today, haven't you?

Nothing inflames more than simple truths. lol

[Non-Sequitur]

Nothing inflames more than simple truths. lol

Simple truths for their simple minds.

[#3Fan]

lol

[nolu chan]

#427 {#3Fan] Where did I say cannon? I said arms.

The armed Vikings, when their ship neared land, threw their laser guided axes at the enemy.

[4CJ]

Uncle Pompey, a cook with Confederates at the early battle of Seven Pines, in violation of orders, was advancing to the fighting front, when asked by another black:

"Whar's you gwine, Uncle Pomp?  You isn't gwine up dar to have all de har scorched off yer head is you?"  Uncle Pompey still persisted in advancing and shouldering a rifle, soon overtook his regiment.  'De Lor' hab mercy on us all, boys, here dey comes agin! Dar it is,' he exclaimed, as the Yankees fired an overshot, 'just as I taught! can't shoot worth a bad five-cent piece.  Now's de time, boys!' and as the Alabamians returned a withering volley and closed up with the enemy, charging them furiously.  Uncle Pompey forgot all about his church, his ministry, and sanctity, and while firing and dodging, as best he could, was heard to shout out: "Pitch in, White folks—Uncle Pomp's behind yer. Send all de Yankees to de 'ternal flames, whar dere's weeping and gnashing of—sail in Alabama; stick 'em wid de bayonet, and send all de blue ornary cusses to de state of eternal fire and brimstone!  Push 'em hard, boys!—push 'em hard; and when dey's gone, may de Lor' hab marcy on de last one on 'em, and send dem to h-ll farder nor a pigin kin fly in a month!  Stick de d—d sons of—! don't spare none on'em, for de good Lor' never made such as dem, no how you kin fix it: for it am said in de two-eyed chapter of de one-eyed John, somewhat in Collusions, dat—Hurray, boys, dat's you, sure—now you've got 'em goss! Show 'em a taste of ole Alabamy,' etc.
H.C. Blackerby, Blacks in Blue and Gray: Afro-American Service in the Civil War, Tuscaloosa, AL: Portals Press (1979), pp.11-12.

[4CJ]

The armed Vikings, when their ship neared land, threw their laser guided axes at the enemy.

ROTFL!

[4CJ]

They needed their long arms because it would have been a severe breach of Army etiquette and tradition to go into battle with nothing in their hands but their short arms.

[*cue the Monty Python music*]
ARTHUR: What happens now?
BEDEMIR: Well, now, uh, Launcelot, Galahad, and I wait until nightfall, and then leap out of the rabbit, taking the French by surprise -- not only by surprise, but totally unarmed!
ARTHUR: Who leaps out?
BEDEMIR: Uh, Launcelot, Galahad, and I. Uh, leap out of the rabbit, uh and uh....
ARTHUR: Oh....
BEDEMIR: Oh.... Um, l-look, if we built this large wooden badger-- [twong]
ALL: Run away! Run away! Run away! Run away! [splat]
GUARDS: Oh, haw haw haw.

[Gianni]

Headquarters Army Of Northern Virginia
Chambersburg, Pa, June 7, 1863
General Order No. 73.

The duties exacted of us by civilization and Christianity are not less obligatory in the country of the enemy than in our own. The commanding general considers that no greater disgrace could befall the army, and through it our whole people, than the perpetration of the barbarous outrages upon the innocent and defenseless and the wanton destruction of private property that have marked the course of the enemy in our own country. ... It must be remembered that we make war only on armed men, and that we cannot take vengeance for the wrongs our people have suffered without lowering ourselves in the eyes of all whose abhorrence has been excited by the atrocities of our enemy, and offending against Him to whom vengeance belongeth, without whose favor and support our efforts must all prove in vain.

The commanding general, therefore earnestly exhorts the troops to abstain with most scrupulous care from unnecessary or wanton injury to private property, and he enjoins upon all officers to arrest and bring to summary punishment all who shall in any way offend against the orders on this subject.

R. E. Lee, General

[G] Now I see that he was planning to arrest them and have a tea party. My bad.

[Gianni]

Alas, the 16 inchers appear to be on their way out. Too bad, there's something very cool about a gun capable of sending something approximating a Volkswagon hurling 30,000 feet into the air and landing over the horizon.

[Gianni]

Simple truths for their simple minds.

So you're on board with this whole "Army infantry waging war from the Powhatan (in Florida) against shore batteries in Charleston (in SC, if you need reminded) with muskets?

What do you suppose the maximum effective range of a .60 cal smoothbore blackpowder musket is? Were the men to row from Pickens to Sumter to land the supplies? Was this some early form of SEAL training? Oh, that's right... these were Army infantry.

Figures you wouldn't understand this. Perhaps you should google up some lessons in Naval warfare. Here, I'll help.

[Gianni]

The armed Vikings, when their ship neared land, threw their laser guided axes at the enemy.

Until a rocket-assisted axe was invented, of course.

[Non-Sequitur]

I figured that was the one that you were referring to. You know, Sherman issued a similar order before his campaign to the sea.

Your deliberate exaggerations aside, the order was issued precisely because of the depredations imposed on the Northern population, depredations you deplore in Sherman's campaign in Georgia. And the order was roundly ignored by the southern army, which looted food and livestock, threatened to burn cities that didn't pay ransom, and grabbed any free black person standing around and sent them south to slavery. And there was no punishment imposed on the southern troops that I am aware of.

[GOPcapitalist]

I take it you're endorsing the pet lunatic. It puts you in good company non-seq...probably somewhere in one of his odd battle formations on the rigging as you desparately try to shoulder a musket while the ship rolls and your foothold slips away from you.