Posted on 02/25/2004 11:52:26 AM PST by 4CJ
THOMASVILLE -- Nelson Winbush knows his voice isn't likely to be heard above the crowd that writes American history books. That doesn't keep him from speaking his mind, however.
A 75-year-old black man whose grandfather proudly fought in the gray uniform of the South during the Civil War, Winbush addressed a group of about 40 at the Thomas County Museum of History Sunday afternoon. To say the least, his perspective of the war differs greatly from what is taught in America's classrooms today.
"People have manufactured a lot of mistruths about why the war took place," he said. "It wasn't about slavery. It was about state's rights and tariffs."
Many of Winbush's words were reserved for the Confederate battle flag, which still swirls amid controversy more than 150 years after it originally flew.
"This flag has been lied about more than any flag in the world," Winbush said. "People see it and they don't really know what the hell they are looking at."
About midway through his 90-minute presentation, Winbush's comments were issued with extra force.
"This flag is the one that draped my grandfathers' coffin," he said while clutching it strongly in his left hand. "I would shudder to think what would happen if somebody tried to do something to this particular flag."
Winbush, a retired in educator and Korean War veteran who resides in Kissimmee, Fla., said the Confederate battle flag has been hijacked by racist groups, prompting unwarranted criticism from its detractors.
"This flag had nothing to with the (Ku Klux) klan or skinheads," he said while wearing a necktie that featured the Confederate emblem. "They weren't even heard of then. It was just a guide to follow in battle.
"That's all it ever was."
Winbush said Confederate soldiers started using the flag with the St. Andrews cross because its original flag closely resembled the U.S. flag. The first Confederate flag's blue patch in an upper corner and its alternating red and white stripes caused confusion on the battlefield, he said.
"Neither side (of the debate) knows what the flag represents," Winbush said. "It's dumb and dumber. You can turn it around, but it's still two dumb bunches.
"If you learn anything else today, don't be dumb."
Winbush learned about the Civil War at the knee of Louis Napoleon Nelson, who joined his master and one of his master's sons in battle voluntarily when he was 14. Nelson saw combat at Lookout Mountain, Bryson's Crossroads, Shiloh and Vicksburg.
"At Shiloh, my grandfather served as a chaplain even though he couldn't read or write," said Winbush, who bolstered his points with photos, letters and newspapers that used to belong to his grandfather. "I've never heard of a black Yankee holding such an office, so that makes him a little different."
Winbush said his grandfather, who also served as a "scavenger," never had any qualms about fighting for the South. He had plenty of chances to make a break for freedom, but never did. He attended 39 Confederate reunions, the final one in 1934. A Sons of Confederate Veterans Chapter in Tennessee is named after him.
"People ask why a black person would fight for the Confederacy. (It was) for the same damned reason a white Southerner did," Winbush explained.
Winbush said Southern blacks and whites often lived together as extended families., adding slaves and slave owners were outraged when Union forces raided their homes. He said history books rarely make mention of this.
"When the master and his older sons went to war, who did he leave his families with?" asked Winbush, who grandfather remained with his former owners 12 years after the hostilities ended. "It was with the slaves. Were his (family members) mistreated? Hell, no!
"They were protected."
Winbush said more than 90,000 blacks, some of them free, fought for the Confederacy. He has said in the past that he would have fought by his grandfather's side in the 7th Tennessee Cavalry led by Gen. Nathan Bedford Forest.
After his presentation, Winbush opened the floor for questions. Two black women, including Jule Anderson of the Thomas County Historical Society Board of Directors, told him the Confederate battle flag made them uncomfortable.
Winbush, who said he started speaking out about the Civil War in 1992 after growing weary of what he dubbed "political correctness," was also challenged about his opinions.
"I have difficulty in trying to apply today's standards with what happened 150 years ago," he said to Anderson's tearful comments. "...That's what a lot of people are attempting to do. I'm just presenting facts, not as I read from some book where somebody thought that they understood. This came straight from the horse's mouth, and I refute anybody to deny that."
Thomas County Historical Society Board member and SVC member Chip Bragg moved in to close the session after it took a political turn when a white audience member voiced disapproval of the use of Confederate symbols on the state flag. Georgia voters are set to go to the polls a week from today to pick a flag to replace the 1956 version, which featured the St. Andrew's cross prominently.
"Those of us who are serious about our Confederate heritage are very unhappy with the trivialization of Confederate symbols and their misuse," he said. "Part of what we are trying to do is correct this misunderstanding."
Oh come on. According to the 1860 census there was only a single person in the entire U.S. who owned 1000 or more slaves. It shouldn't be that hard to identify him.
How many women have been raped during the past 2000 years? Guesses don't count. You still don't understand do you? You yourself prove that MORE cases can be found than what are documented, yet refuse to extend that yankee brutalities.
His story doesn't add up. People don't survive hangings unless those who were hanging him weren't really trying to kill him.
So if someone fires a gun at you and misses, they weren't really trying to kill you? If that person stabs you 20 ties, and yet you survive, they did not intend to kill you? ROTF!
As I said, Union soldiers were court-martialed, Confederate soldiers were not, they appeared to be just executed by their own people. So the two situations are different and there may not be that many more rapes than went to trial on the Union side. Regardless, you said "thousands" by Sherman's men alone and I'm just not seeing anything that can back that up from you. The best you can do is 350 for all armies for the entire war.
So if someone fires a gun at you and misses, they weren't really trying to kill you?
I said "hangings", not "shootings". If a person shoots at you, he may be just trying to scare you. When a group of men hang you, unless they save your life, you're going to die. The fact that the guy didn't die probably means they weren't trying to kill him. Can you explain to me how he could've survived the hanging without the men not saving him themselves? His story just doesn't add up.
If that person stabs you 20 ties, and yet you survive, they did not intend to kill you? ROTF!
Explain to me how a person survives a hanging if the men were really trying to kill him. It seems to me the men who were hanging him would've had to save him for him to survive.
A good question, assuming the premise is true. I think a lot of people doublespeak on this point: They claim the North was bound by the Constitution, however Northern abrogation of the Constitution was obvious at the time of secession.
The Confederate leaders should have expected a fight, but must've thought a demonstration of will would be adequate.
I would dispute the "abrogation of the Constitution", but the point of my post is how ridiculous the southron insistence on comparing their actions with the Founders is. The Founders did not secede, the launched a rebellion expecting to have to fight for their independence. There was nothing legal about their actions. The southron contingent, on the other hand, would have us believe that there was no difference between their actions and actions of four score and 5 years prior, which must mean that somewhere in British law there is a legal right to rebellion, and seem absolutely shocked that the Lincoln administration might object to their position. So you're damned right that they should have expected to fight. The fact that they did expect war and were, in fact, preparing for it is borne out by their creation of a huge army and their belligerent positon on Sumter and Pickens. And there is the fact that Davis did need the other 8 slave states in his confederacy if it was to have any chance at all to prosper outside the shadow of the U.S. He knew that those states wouldn't join without a war, and banked that he could win the war with them in the southern fold. As it was he only got half the states he wanted, and lost the war that resulted from his actions.
"When there is added to this the irregularities of the soldierly-such as taking poultry, pigs, milk, butter, preserves, potatoes, horses, and in fact everything they want; entering and searching houses, and stealing in many cases; committing rapes on the negroes and such like things. These things are not exaggerated by me, and, though they do not characterize all the troops, several regiments have conducted in this way, and have also repeatedly fired on peaceable citizens-sometimes from trains as they passed-and no punishment, or none of any account, has been meted out to them."
'Extracts from letter of J. T. K. Hayward to J. W. Brooks, dated "Steamer Jennie Deans, August 14, 1861"', The War of the Rebellion: A Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies, the Official Records, Ser. 1, Vol. 3, p. 459.
"A part of this brigade [Nineteenth Regiment Illinois Volunteers] went to the plantation of the above-named Malone and quartered in the negro huts for weeks, debauching the females and roaming with the males over the surrounding country to plunder and pillage."
The War of the Rebellion: A Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies, the Official Records, Ser. 1, Vol. 16, p. 274.
"Several soldiers came to the house of Mrs. Charlotte Hine and committed rape on the person of a colored girl and then entered the house and plundered it of all the sugar, coffee, preserve, and the like which they could find. Before leaving they destroyed or carried off all the pictures and ornaments they could lay their hands on."
The War of the Rebellion: A Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies, the Official Records, Ser. 1, Vol. 16, p. 275.
"A rape was committed upon the daughter of a farmer who had rendered me [Brigadier General Herman Haupt] material assistance in searching for timber through the woods. I inquired of the parents in regard to the facts, and found that the act had been perpetrated by one of the numerous stragglers who were continually passing through the country in every direction, and from whose ravages not a single farm-house in the vicinity of the road was exempt, except when guarded, and not always even then."
The War of the Rebellion: A Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies, the Official Records, Ser. 1, Vol. 12, Pt. 1, p. 78.
"The crimes of spying, murder, arson, rape and others as well as desertion are increasing, and the power to check them by inflicting the penalty of death is a nullity, for by the delays necessary to get them a regular trial by general court-martial and then holding them until the matter is reviewed and approved by the President such a time elapsed that the troops are relieved and the culprit escapes."
Rosecrans to Stanton, The War of the Rebellion: A Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies, the Official Records, Ser. 2, Vol. 5, Pt. 1, p. 170.
"[H]e committed a rape on the wife of a soldier, and fled to Owen County for protection. "
The War of the Rebellion: A Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies, the Official Records, Ser. 2, Vol. 2, p. 223.
"The determination of the hordes of foreigners and others from Ohio who have overrun and now hold this country is very terrible. Thefts, plunder, arson, and rape are occurring every day."
Brig. Gen. Floyd, The War of the Rebellion: A Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies, the Official Records, Ser. 1, Vol. 51, Pt. 2, p. 261.
"General Ord represents that want of discipline and good officers in the Twenty-fifth Corps renders it a very improper force for the preservation of order in this department. A number of cases of atrocious rape by these men have already occurred. Their influence on the colored population is also reported to be bad."
The War of the Rebellion: A Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies, the Official Records, Ser. 1, Vol. 46, Pt. 3, p. 1005.
"After he had been gone a few days i heard by rumor that Captain Moore, his officers and men, had seized a quantity of Louisiana rum and were on a drunken spree, committing various depredations, and that one of his men had attempted to rape a mulatto girl and had shot and killed her for resisting."
The War of the Rebellion: A Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies, the Official Records, Ser. 1, Vol. 41, Pt. 1, p. 928.
"[A]bout the 13th of June last a regiment of negroes, commanded by Colonel Draper, of Massachusetts arrived at Pope's Creek, in Westmoreland County, Va., accompanied by about fifty regular U. S. Cavalry. They marched to Union Wharf, Richmond County, in divided commands, taking negroes, horses, cattle, bacon, wagons, farming utensils, &c., all of which were either carried away or burned. About the 14th ultimo, at a place called Hutt's Store, near the center of Westmoreland County, some of the negro troops went to the house of Private George, of Ninth Virginia Cavalry, and committed a rape upon his wife, who had just been confined with a babe only six weeks old. She is now almost a maniac, and begs that some one will kill her. This atrocious crime can be verified by a number of witnesses who are personally cognizant of the fact. In Warsaw, Richmond County, the negro troops attempted to ravish white ladies, but were foiled by the assistance of the female slaves of the households. In the case of Mrs. Belfield, she escaped by flight to the woods. Many other instances could be mentioned of like atrocities if desired."
The War of the Rebellion: A Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies, the Official Records, Ser. 1, Vol. 40, Pt. 3, p. 743.
"Battalion was ordered to burn the mill bridge and causeway bridges. While so engaged, Private James Currance, Company A, First New York Mounted Rifles, was brought to him by the caterer of my mess, Dennis Riley, Company D, who, with one or two others, caught Currance in the act of committing a rape upon an old woman sixty years of age. While Captain Loomis was securing him, he shot at one of the men who was detailed to tie him "
The War of the Rebellion: A Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies, the Official Records, Ser. 1, Vol. 27, Pt. 2, p. 983.
'For instance, a Mr. Moore, living near Helena, reported to his provost-marshal-general that a party of Federal soldiers, had entered his house, and finding a feeble daughter and enceinte wife, did threaten and intimidate them and snap caps upon their revolvers, causing Mrs. Moore to produce an abortion and thereby endanger her life. I replied that the general commanding had no knowledge of such an occurrence, and that if it had happened and if the parties could be found they would be brought to punishment. He went on to say that a deserter had come to him and he asked him why he had deserted. He, the deserter, replied that "their conduct could not be borne; for," says he, "general, I have seen a party of these soldiers rape a mother and daughter with my own eyes."'
The War of the Rebellion: A Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies, the Official Records, Ser. 1, Vol. 13, Pt. 1, p. 769.
"Guerrillas are forming in various parts of the country, provoked by rapes and other crimes committed by Union men. Cases have occurred in this vicinity recently of an aggravated character."
The War of the Rebellion: A Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies, the Official Records, Ser. 1, Vol. 12, Pt. 3, p. 196.
"The most terrible outrages-robberies, rapes, arsons, and plundering-are being committed by lawless brigands and vagabonds connected with the army."
The War of the Rebellion: A Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies, the Official Records, Ser. 1, Vol. 10, Pt. 2, p. 204.
"Reports are made to me of the most disgraceful outrages on the part of troops along the road within 10 or 12 miles of your station. Not only is properly taken without vouchers, as required by law and my repeated orders, but property is wantonly destroyed, negro women are debauched, and ladies insulted."
The War of the Rebellion: A Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies, the Official Records, Ser. 1, Vol. 16, Pt. 2, p. 319.
"[W]ith still another West Point pigmy, only remarkable for having the ability to complete at Vicksburg that which his notorious coadjutor initiated in Kentucky and Tennessee, as commander of all the artillery of the Richmond defenses; and with a country to the north and east of Richmond utterly ravished and despoiled, even to the last negro slave and the last morsel of food
The War of the Rebellion: A Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies, the Official Records, Ser. 1, Vol. 51, Pt. 2, p. 1005.
"The scenes of disorder and pillage on these two days' march were disgraceful to civilized war. Houses were entered and all in them destroyed in the most wanton manner. Ladies were frightened into delivering their jewels and valuables into the hands of the soldiers by treats of violence toward their husbands. Negro women were ravished in the presence of white women and children. These disgusting scenes were due to the want of discipline in this army, and to the utter incompetency of regimental officers."
The War of the Rebellion: A Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies, the Official Records, Ser. 1, Vol. 15, Pt. 1, p. 373
"A small party of deserters from the Union forces then in Fauquier County were roaming that region with arms in their hands, entering the houses, marauding and ravishing in the neighborhood. They had ravished two respectable females residing within a few miles from Mr. Scott's home. He hearing of it sent a message to the nearest Union command, urging the apprehension of these desperadoes, and at the same time started, accompanied by his overseer and a half-dozen neighbors, and in attempting to apprehend these men they shot him and killed him. His death caused infinite consternation in the community, as the marauders escaped, and did more to destroy the remaining Union feeling existing in that section of Virginia than any other event of the war that had occurred up to that time."
The War of the Rebellion: A Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies, the Official Records, Ser. 1, Vol. 12, Pt. 1, p. 51.
"Your attention is also called to the reports which come to me directly and from innumerable sources of great atrocities committed by your troops on their march to Helena and since, such as the burning of houses, robbing women and children of their clothing, bedding and last pound of meat and breadstuffs; taking medicines from planters and practicing physicians; in some cases offering personal violence to females even to the horrible extent of ravishing them. These are crimes against humanity and civilization.
The War of the Rebellion: A Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies, the Official Records, Ser. 2, Vol. 4, Pt. 1, p. 316.
Ice is almost out here. Spent Saturday sitting on the tailgate of the truck parked on a frozen lake about 100yds from open water. With highs in the 40's all week with rain in the forecast, it won't take long and I can get the boat out.
Perhaps that stalwart truth-seeker, Lucy Shelton Stewart has something to say about this as well.
Agreed... thus: secession.
I'm not sure the remainder of your post pertains as particularly to the South as you'd like it to.
We'll rue the day, I'm sure.
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