Posted on 02/25/2004 11:52:26 AM PST by 4CJ
THOMASVILLE -- Nelson Winbush knows his voice isn't likely to be heard above the crowd that writes American history books. That doesn't keep him from speaking his mind, however.
A 75-year-old black man whose grandfather proudly fought in the gray uniform of the South during the Civil War, Winbush addressed a group of about 40 at the Thomas County Museum of History Sunday afternoon. To say the least, his perspective of the war differs greatly from what is taught in America's classrooms today.
"People have manufactured a lot of mistruths about why the war took place," he said. "It wasn't about slavery. It was about state's rights and tariffs."
Many of Winbush's words were reserved for the Confederate battle flag, which still swirls amid controversy more than 150 years after it originally flew.
"This flag has been lied about more than any flag in the world," Winbush said. "People see it and they don't really know what the hell they are looking at."
About midway through his 90-minute presentation, Winbush's comments were issued with extra force.
"This flag is the one that draped my grandfathers' coffin," he said while clutching it strongly in his left hand. "I would shudder to think what would happen if somebody tried to do something to this particular flag."
Winbush, a retired in educator and Korean War veteran who resides in Kissimmee, Fla., said the Confederate battle flag has been hijacked by racist groups, prompting unwarranted criticism from its detractors.
"This flag had nothing to with the (Ku Klux) klan or skinheads," he said while wearing a necktie that featured the Confederate emblem. "They weren't even heard of then. It was just a guide to follow in battle.
"That's all it ever was."
Winbush said Confederate soldiers started using the flag with the St. Andrews cross because its original flag closely resembled the U.S. flag. The first Confederate flag's blue patch in an upper corner and its alternating red and white stripes caused confusion on the battlefield, he said.
"Neither side (of the debate) knows what the flag represents," Winbush said. "It's dumb and dumber. You can turn it around, but it's still two dumb bunches.
"If you learn anything else today, don't be dumb."
Winbush learned about the Civil War at the knee of Louis Napoleon Nelson, who joined his master and one of his master's sons in battle voluntarily when he was 14. Nelson saw combat at Lookout Mountain, Bryson's Crossroads, Shiloh and Vicksburg.
"At Shiloh, my grandfather served as a chaplain even though he couldn't read or write," said Winbush, who bolstered his points with photos, letters and newspapers that used to belong to his grandfather. "I've never heard of a black Yankee holding such an office, so that makes him a little different."
Winbush said his grandfather, who also served as a "scavenger," never had any qualms about fighting for the South. He had plenty of chances to make a break for freedom, but never did. He attended 39 Confederate reunions, the final one in 1934. A Sons of Confederate Veterans Chapter in Tennessee is named after him.
"People ask why a black person would fight for the Confederacy. (It was) for the same damned reason a white Southerner did," Winbush explained.
Winbush said Southern blacks and whites often lived together as extended families., adding slaves and slave owners were outraged when Union forces raided their homes. He said history books rarely make mention of this.
"When the master and his older sons went to war, who did he leave his families with?" asked Winbush, who grandfather remained with his former owners 12 years after the hostilities ended. "It was with the slaves. Were his (family members) mistreated? Hell, no!
"They were protected."
Winbush said more than 90,000 blacks, some of them free, fought for the Confederacy. He has said in the past that he would have fought by his grandfather's side in the 7th Tennessee Cavalry led by Gen. Nathan Bedford Forest.
After his presentation, Winbush opened the floor for questions. Two black women, including Jule Anderson of the Thomas County Historical Society Board of Directors, told him the Confederate battle flag made them uncomfortable.
Winbush, who said he started speaking out about the Civil War in 1992 after growing weary of what he dubbed "political correctness," was also challenged about his opinions.
"I have difficulty in trying to apply today's standards with what happened 150 years ago," he said to Anderson's tearful comments. "...That's what a lot of people are attempting to do. I'm just presenting facts, not as I read from some book where somebody thought that they understood. This came straight from the horse's mouth, and I refute anybody to deny that."
Thomas County Historical Society Board member and SVC member Chip Bragg moved in to close the session after it took a political turn when a white audience member voiced disapproval of the use of Confederate symbols on the state flag. Georgia voters are set to go to the polls a week from today to pick a flag to replace the 1956 version, which featured the St. Andrew's cross prominently.
"Those of us who are serious about our Confederate heritage are very unhappy with the trivialization of Confederate symbols and their misuse," he said. "Part of what we are trying to do is correct this misunderstanding."
Well, let's just read the judge's account [paragraphs mine]:
In 1865, just after the surrender of the last Confederate forces, Wilson's Federal raiders were abroad in Middle Georgia. A detachment of these plunderers visited Meriwether County, headed for Judge Warner's home. The substance of what happened was afterwards related by him as follows:Under the Lieber Code Article 38, "Private property, unless forfeited by crimes or by offenses of the owner, can be seized only by way of military necessity", and even then, "the commanding officer will cause receipts to be given." Furthermore, Article 44 specifically stated "all robbery, all pillage or sacking, even after taking a place by main force, all rape, wounding, maiming, or killing of such inhabitants, are prohibited under the penalty of death."On the first appearance of the blue coats, all the whites on the place fled except Judge Warner and his daughter. The latter was in bed with a two-weeks-old infant and could not leave. Her father remained with her. During the next few hours some cavalry detachments stole all the property they could carry with them. About noon, another party arrived, and stopping, fed their horses, stole the silverware and all other valuables they could find. And robbed the smokehouse and pantry of all contents.(See paper by Hon. John W. Akin, "Hiram Warner," in Report of the Fourteenth Annual Session of the Georgia Bar Association ... 1897).Judge Warner helpless, witnessed all this in silence, when suddenly the leader put a pistol to his head and ordered him to accompany them. Between the mansion house and the negro quarters was a small piece of woodland. To this the captain conducted the Judge and there the leader, wearing the uniform of a Federal caption, took from his pocket his watch, and said: "I will give you just three minutes to tell where your gold is hidden." Judge Warner protested that he had no gold. To this the reply was that they had been informed that he did have it and that he must deliver it up. He again denied that he had any. They then searched him.
They found on his person some four thousand dollars in Confederate money and fifteen thousand in Central Railroad bills, of which they relieved him. At the end of three minutes the captain gave a signal. One of the troopers took from a horse a long leather strap with a running noose at the end. Some of the others beat down the end of a near-by pine sapling. With an oath, the officer said the sapling was too small, and ordered them to select a large and stouter tree for their lynching bee. This was done, the judge remaining silent.
One of the straps was adjusted about his neck, and the other securely fastened to the tree. The sapling being held by several of the uniformed soldiers, was gradually released until the line became taut, when they let go the tree, and the body of this great and good man was suspended in the air. When he revived, he was on the ground, but with the hangman's noose still around his neck. The men still surrounded him. Again he was ordered to give up his gold, under penalty of death. He made the same brief reply to this demand, that he had made to the others of like import.
Again, he was strung up and the sapling released. Judge Warner related that this was about 2 o'clock in the day. When the sun was nearly down he recovered consciousness. He lay at the foot of the tree. The noose had been removed from his neck. The dry leaves of the preceding autumn had been fired and were burning within a foot or two of his head. The soldiers had left him for dead and had set fire to the woods. He was barely able to make his way back to the house and to the bedside of his sick daughter. He himself lay ill for many days thereafter. He was confident that those soldiers belonged to a regiment of Wisconsin cavalry. Such, substantially, is Judge Warner's own account of this experience.
Warren Grice, Georgia Through Two Centuries, E. Merton Coulter, ed., New York, NY: Lewis Historical Publishing Co. (1965), vol. I, pp. 304-306.
Sherman wrote, "There is a class of people [Confederates], men, women and children, who must be killed or banished before you can hope for peace and order." And "the war will soon assume a turn to extermination not of soldiers alone, that is the least part of the trouble, but the people." In 1863 he wrote, "I and every commander must go through the war justly chargeable with crimes."
What Sherman said could apply to any general or commander who has had to attack civilian installations to win a war, such as Ike, Truman, Roosevelt, or Doolittle, and that was Sherman's point. I'm sure there are many that would like to charge Truman with Hiroshima, of Ike for the firebombing of Germany. Again the South had it easy compared to most vanquished peoples. Especially if all they can come up with is just a threat.
This shows how out of touch with reality you neoconfederates are.
Please refer back to the original post on this subject - the claim was thousands, not tens of thousands.
According to Beverly & Thomas Lowry (authors of numerous books and creators of the courts martial database), of the 100,000 Union courts-martial, some 350 men were officially found guilty of rape (as an aside, in their review of over 5,000 Confederate courts-martial, 0 were for rape). Of the Union courts martial, 24,188 were guily of desertion. Additionally, they note that not all rapes are reported as such, many are cited as 'conduct prejudicial'. Furthermore, that is only those officially charged, just as today, far more incidents occur than are reported. And even then, what Southern woman could expect justice from the Yankees that just destroyed their farm and stole all their property?
So EVERY Account of a crime is now a "partisan" account? ROFTLMAO! No testimony could ever be ruled admissiable by your standard!
It was the statement of a justice of the Supreme Court of Georgia, not just in one citatation but 2. Your assertion that 'no one was hurt' is ludicrous. If you are ever in court attempting to obtain justice from the man that beat you, I'm sure his defense will be that you were not hurt! Sherman admitted that he was a war criminal in 1863.
The South had it easy???????? Cities & towns destroyed, millions and millions of dollars worth of propery stolen, military governments - it's taken us decades to recover, and ignorant Yankees still attempt to Lord it over us.
Please, go back to your shrine of Lincoln & Sherman, worship your idols - ONLY by waging war on women and children, and by starving the South into submission did the Yankees "win".
How does 350 equal "thousands"? Again, you're delusional in thinking that 350 means thousands. And it was kinda hard for Southerners to be charged by the U.S. military with rape since they were not Union soldiers and since they spent such little time in the North and if they committed rapes in the South, the Confederacy didn't have the resources to charge them, and if they did, many records were lost. Plus there are accounts that the military wouldn't charge them even if they did rape according to the Governer of Virginia because there were disputes over what was a military crime and what was a civilian crime. Even so, here are some pages of Confederate rapes against their own women. Plus, the bias is clear when the authors say that despite 350 cases, that they know there were more. Uh huh, sounds like today's feminazis. Plus, despite your claims against Sherman, these 350 were spread over the whole war and all armies. So that would add up to very few for Sherman's men. Your claims thousands of rapes by Sherman's men just don't add up, not surprisingly, given the record of neoconfederates when it comes to facts.
All testimony is admissable. The jury has to decide if it's believable. This man is obviously a partisan and his story doesn't add up. He says he was hanged and left for dead but somehow managed to survive and take care of his daughter. I didn't know that many people survived a hanging, and even if he did he should have at least severe brain damage from lack of oxygen. These soldiers weren't trying very hard to kill him even if his story is true. And even if his story was true, Sherman was not present, so your this doesn't prove your claims against him anyway.
It was the statement of a justice of the Supreme Court of Georgia, not just in one citatation but 2. Your assertion that 'no one was hurt' is ludicrous. If you are ever in court attempting to obtain justice from the man that beat you, I'm sure his defense will be that you were not hurt!
If I go to court saying a group of men tried to hang me and I didn't have any injuries from it, I think the jury would decide that they weren't really trying to kill me.
Sherman admitted that he was a war criminal in 1863.
Sherman was relating the realities of war and what every commander must do to win. And he did no different than Ike, Patton, Doolittle, and Truman. You win wars by attacking supplies. Sherman said that every commander has had to to what had to be done.
The South had it easy???????? Cities & towns destroyed, millions and millions of dollars worth of propery stolen, military governments - it's taken us decades to recover,...
Destroyed property can be rebuilt. Genocide is forever, and most vanquished peoples experience genocide. If the South didn't want war, they shouldn't have attacked Sumter and stole federal property and they should've followed the Constitution in their secession attempts.
..and ignorant Yankees still attempt to Lord it over us
Like you wanted to lord over blacks? Live by the sword, die by the sword.
Please, go back to your shrine of Lincoln & Sherman, worship your idols - ONLY by waging war on women and children, and by starving the South into submission did the Yankees "win".
Attacking supplies is what's known as war. You guys started it, you reaped the wind and you got the whirlwind.
Could you please explain what you mean by this?
Shows how much you know of military organization and responsibility. The commanding officer of any brigade, troop, regiment, etc. is responsible for the conduct of his troops.
"What Sherman said could apply to any general or commander who has had to attack civilian installations to win a war, such as Ike, Truman, Roosevelt, or Doolittle, and that was Sherman's point."
So by your remark I would take it that you excuse the previously mentioned crimes by Stalin, Hitler, Mao Tse Dung, Pol Pot, Kemal Attaturk, Reinhard Heydrich to name a few. After all - they were trying to win wars also.
Out of touch with reality? If that means having the rule book written in pencil so its easy to justify actions as you go, then perhaps we "neoconfederates" are, or perhaps we held our men to a higher standard. It just proves that you Yankees will stoop to any means, fair or foul, to achieve your ends.
When it comes to moral ethics don't look to the Yankees - they're fresh out of it!
So Lee is guilty of war crimes since some Confederate soldiers raped Confederate women?
So by your remark I would take it that you excuse the previously mentioned crimes by Stalin, Hitler, Mao Tse Dung, Pol Pot, Kemal Attaturk, Reinhard Heydrich to name a few. After all - they were trying to win wars also.
No, they committed war crimes for the sake of committing war crimes, not to win wars. Sherman's point is that it is a judgment call, and he's right. Sherman's actions saved thousands of lives by shortening the war, as did Truman's and Ike's. I place the value of thousands of lives over that of burned buildings in Sherman's case.
Out of touch with reality? If that means having the rule book written in pencil so its easy to justify actions as you go, then perhaps we "neoconfederates" are, or perhaps we held our men to a higher standard. It just proves that you Yankees will stoop to any means, fair or foul, to achieve your ends.
How can a potential nation founded to perpetuate slavery be a high standard? And Confederate soldiers committed atrocities...murder of Union soldiers and rape of their own women...so where's the high standard? If Lee could've destroyed the supply lines to win the war, he would've done so also. His excursions in the North didn't last long enough for him to do so.
When it comes to moral ethics don't look to the Yankees - they're fresh out of it!
That's a laugh coming from a person who think that the side that tried to perpetuate the bondage of an entire people should've won.
Had the South been left alone, slavery would've died a natural death, in fact many Southerners were trying to figure out what to do with the slaves once they were freed. Don't believe me, go research it for yourself. As to your illusion that all the wicked Southerners wanted to perpetuate slavery - think again. How could that be true when only 10% of the Southern populace owned any? So then what would make a white backwoods Southerner fight for the Confederacy? His rights of self-determination was what the driving force was.
What you Yankee idiots can't stand is the fact that you did repudiate the cornerstone of American ideology in 1865 and hand over all the States to bigger government. You hide behind the supposed cloak of moral righteousness to cover up your aggressive bullying of the Southern states. You think you have it all sewn up, but if you would take the time to study what the Founders' intended you would find that you are wrong. You say "Well the Supreme Court ruled that the unilateral secession of the States was illegal." I however, take my cue from the Founders', and I quote Thomas Jefferson.
"[T]he germ of dissolution of our federal government is in the constitution of the federal Judiciary." --Thomas Jefferson
Meaning this - "The overarching issue is that the system of government envisioned by our Founders and defended in The Federalist Papers -- a government "to ... establish Justice," a republic where "we, the people" would elect representatives who were to be held accountable by an independent judiciary -- has devolved into little more than a system of government by judicial decree. Alas, our Founders expected judges to honor our constitution; to be constitutional constructionists bound by the letter of that venerable document; to be above the whims of democratic elections that would, inevitably, politicize the courts. But once an activist judge begins, in the words of that stalwart old Sen. Sam Ervin, to "interpret the Constitution to mean what it would have said if he, instead of the Founding Fathers, had written it," our Constitution is, in effect, rendered null and void.
No sooner had judicial activists begun "interpreting" the constitution such that it comported with their political agenda, than the courts became political instruments. Elected officials were thereafter chosen based upon who they'd appoint to the courts, knowing that those appointments would reflect a particular political agenda.
Thomas Jefferson warned of the potential tyranny of the "despotic branch": "Over the Judiciary department, the Constitution [has] deprived [the people] of their control. ... The original error [was in] establishing a judiciary independent of the nation, and which, from the citadel of the law, can turn its guns on those they were meant to defend, and control and fashion their proceedings to its own will. ... The opinion which gives to the judges the right to decide what laws are constitutional and what not, not only for themselves in their own sphere of action but for the Legislature and Executive also in their spheres, would make the Judiciary a despotic branch. ... It is a misnomer to call a government republican in which a branch of the supreme power [the judiciary] is independent of the nation. ... It has long, however, been my opinion, and I have never shrunk from its expression...that the germ of dissolution of our federal government is in the constitution of the federal Judiciary; working like gravity by night and by day, gaining a little today and a little tomorrow, and advancing its noiseless step like a thief, over the field of jurisdiction, until all shall be usurped." - The Federalist, 04-08 Digest
You can't argue with the Founders' they knew what they wanted, and you and the rest of the Yankee ilk denied the States that vision under the noble guise of "Freeing the slaves". The war was really "to preserve the Union" was it not? And in doing so you all nullified the 9th, and 10th Amendments to the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence, and in effect - the Constitution as it was explained in the following quote -"...[T]he States will retain, under the proposed Constitution, a very extensive portion of active sovereignty..." --James Madison, Federalist No. 45
"Indeed, virtually all has been usurped. Jefferson, in his great wisdom knew that human nature being what it is, judges would eventually abandon the plain language of the Constitution." - The Federalist 04-08 Digest
But what the hell, you trashtalkers won and all the "People" lost. So you can still wallow in your self-righteous putridness by deluding yourself with the following phrase "It was for the good of the Country". But then how many tyrannical abuses have been committed under that phrase? And how many are still being attempted today? Activist judges with their "Gays can marry", and the 10 Commandments cannot be placed in state office mall. Seems to this "neo-confederate" redneck that you turds got it all wrong all those years ago. You made the Federal government bigger, and the States (ergo the People) less powerful. It isn't about slavery, and never was ... its about the right of self determination.
Lastly I'll leave you with this, I served for 20 years to defend the Constitution of the United States, and I'm not relenquished from that oath. But in trying to educate you to another view, I still serve -"The best service that can be rendered to a Country, next to that of giving it liberty, is in diffusing the mental improvement equally essential to the preservation, and the enjoyment of the blessing." --James Madison
Additionally, they note that not all rapes are reported as such, many are cited as 'conduct prejudicial'.
It's not as if he's a novice on the subject, Lowry authored Tarnished Eagles: The Court-Martial of Fifty Union Colonels and Lieutenant Colonels
The Story the Soldiers Wouldn't Tell: Sex in the Civil War
Tarnished Scalpels: The Court-Martials of Fifty Union Surgeons
Swamp Doctor: The Diary of a Union Surgeon in the Virginia and North Carolina Marshes
The Attack on Taranto: Blueprint for Pearl Harbor
Curmudgeons, Drunkards, and Outright Fools: Courts-Martial of Civil War Union Colonels
Don't Shoot That Boy! Abraham Lincoln and Military Justice
And refering to the rapes you report by Confederates - that was the "bait". Despite NOT being documented in the Confederate Records which they researched, you located some not documented. Thank you for proving my point for me.
Sir:
You will proceed to the residences of the persons herein named and deal with them in accordance with the following instructions:
In all cases where the residences of the persons are ordered to be destroyed, you will observe the following previous to setting them on fire:
You will first search their houses and premises to see if they have any articles belonging to the U.S Gov. or that are contraband of War, which you will bring away in
case any are found; also all or any of the folllowing articles that may be found belonging to the aforesaid Persons.
First: All Horses, Hogs, Sheep, Cattle, and any other animals or articles of whatever description that may be valuable to the U.S. Gov. especially those that are
valuable to the Quartermaster, Comisary, and Hospital Departments.
Second: All stoves and stove pipes of whatever description and all Kitchen utensils, Queens ware, beds, bedding, knives, forks etc; also chairs, sofas, sociables,
lounges, and everything of the charecter of househotel furniture.
Third: All window sash and glass, looking glasses, carpets etc.
Fourth: Every article of househotel furniture which you do not bring with you must be destroyed or burned with the house.
Fifth: All barns, stables, smoke houses, or any other out houses of any description whatsoever or any buildings or articles that could probably be of use or benefit as
comfort to Rebels or Bushwhackers, their friends or any person siding abetting or sympathising with Rebels Bushwackers etc or which could be used for subsistance for man or beast will be destroyed or burned.
Sixth: All animals, forage or other articles of value brought in by you will be turned over to Lieut. J. W. Raymond A.A.L.M this stuff to be subject to the order of
Major Genl. Milroy to be disposed of as he may think proper; taking a receipt therefor from Lieut Raymond.
Seventh: The Train acompanying will be subject to your orders together with all the persons connected with it whether soldiers or citizens and you will cause any of
them, who may be guilty of committing depredations upon legal citizens or their Protperty to be arrested and you will not yourself or suffer those under your
command to commit any trespass or do any damage to persons or property except those specified in this order.
Eighth: You will burn the houses of the following named persons, take any of the articles named above that they may have, together with all forage and grains
belonging to them that you can bring away which may be useful to the U.S. Gov. for military purposes or otherwise and will give no receipts of any kind whatever.
Names Dist Residences
1. Joseph How 1/2 mile South of Hillsboro one mile west of the Hillsboro and Winchester road.
2. Shadrack McBride 11 On the Pelham & Hillsboro road.
3. Thomas L. Gunn 11 2 miles South of Hillsboro on Bean's Creek
4. Washington Riley Hillsboro
5. Pleasant Nevill 12 On the Pelham & Tullahoma road on Bean's Creek; (crossed out: Some neighborhood as the above named)
6. L. B. Austell 12 Same neighborhood as the above named.
7. John W. Jones 3 miles South West of Hillsboro and one mile West of the Hillsboro and Winchester road.
Ninth: The following persons will be shot in addition to suffering in the manner prescribed in Paragraph Eighth.
Names Dist Residences
Coffee Co.
1. Leroy Moore At Heffers mill on Bradley Creek
Franklin Co.
2. Thomas Sanders 8 On Elk River
3. William Sanders 8 Same neighborhood as the above. Search this house for arms before shooting him
4. Louis Anderson 8 Same neighborhood as the above
By Command of Maj. Genl. Milroy
Thos. Worthington
Lieut. 106 O of I & A.D.C.
SOURCE: National Archives of the United States, Record Group 94, Union Provost Marshall (emphasis added)
Headquarters
Tullahoma, Tenn.
Names of some disloyal citizens of the Fourht district, Franklin County Tenn. A narration of their crimes and the orders of Maj. Genl. Milroy as to what punishment they shall suffer for said crimes...
(NOTE: List contains in excess of 50 civilians. The following are a few excerpts from that list)
Wesley Davis -- Harbors Bushwhackers. CLEAN OUT
Green Denison -- A bushwhacker with Hays. KILL.
Jane Lipscum -- A widow. Harbors bushwhackers. CLEAN OUT.
Cynthia McCullum -- Wife of the above and also instigated her son to murder Kennedy, the same remarks that apply to her husband apply also to her with double force. She is a very bad and a very dangerous woman. SHOOT IF YOU CAN, MAKE IT LOOK AN ACCIDENT
Charlotte McCullum -- An unmarried sister of the above and is almost as bad as her mother. BURN EVERYTHING.
SOURCE: National Archives of the United States, Record Group 46, Union Provost Marshall (emphasis added).
NOTE: By Milroy's definition, a "bushwacker" was virtually any confederate soldier found in his jurisdiction. The charges for murder for which some of these civilians were being prosecuted were based almost entirely upon the allegations of one civilian, Moses Pittman. As a "reward" for his testimony Milroy ordered that a couple confederate prisoners be given to him to "dispose" of as he pleased, i.e. torture them to death.
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