Posted on 02/25/2004 11:52:26 AM PST by 4CJ
THOMASVILLE -- Nelson Winbush knows his voice isn't likely to be heard above the crowd that writes American history books. That doesn't keep him from speaking his mind, however.
A 75-year-old black man whose grandfather proudly fought in the gray uniform of the South during the Civil War, Winbush addressed a group of about 40 at the Thomas County Museum of History Sunday afternoon. To say the least, his perspective of the war differs greatly from what is taught in America's classrooms today.
"People have manufactured a lot of mistruths about why the war took place," he said. "It wasn't about slavery. It was about state's rights and tariffs."
Many of Winbush's words were reserved for the Confederate battle flag, which still swirls amid controversy more than 150 years after it originally flew.
"This flag has been lied about more than any flag in the world," Winbush said. "People see it and they don't really know what the hell they are looking at."
About midway through his 90-minute presentation, Winbush's comments were issued with extra force.
"This flag is the one that draped my grandfathers' coffin," he said while clutching it strongly in his left hand. "I would shudder to think what would happen if somebody tried to do something to this particular flag."
Winbush, a retired in educator and Korean War veteran who resides in Kissimmee, Fla., said the Confederate battle flag has been hijacked by racist groups, prompting unwarranted criticism from its detractors.
"This flag had nothing to with the (Ku Klux) klan or skinheads," he said while wearing a necktie that featured the Confederate emblem. "They weren't even heard of then. It was just a guide to follow in battle.
"That's all it ever was."
Winbush said Confederate soldiers started using the flag with the St. Andrews cross because its original flag closely resembled the U.S. flag. The first Confederate flag's blue patch in an upper corner and its alternating red and white stripes caused confusion on the battlefield, he said.
"Neither side (of the debate) knows what the flag represents," Winbush said. "It's dumb and dumber. You can turn it around, but it's still two dumb bunches.
"If you learn anything else today, don't be dumb."
Winbush learned about the Civil War at the knee of Louis Napoleon Nelson, who joined his master and one of his master's sons in battle voluntarily when he was 14. Nelson saw combat at Lookout Mountain, Bryson's Crossroads, Shiloh and Vicksburg.
"At Shiloh, my grandfather served as a chaplain even though he couldn't read or write," said Winbush, who bolstered his points with photos, letters and newspapers that used to belong to his grandfather. "I've never heard of a black Yankee holding such an office, so that makes him a little different."
Winbush said his grandfather, who also served as a "scavenger," never had any qualms about fighting for the South. He had plenty of chances to make a break for freedom, but never did. He attended 39 Confederate reunions, the final one in 1934. A Sons of Confederate Veterans Chapter in Tennessee is named after him.
"People ask why a black person would fight for the Confederacy. (It was) for the same damned reason a white Southerner did," Winbush explained.
Winbush said Southern blacks and whites often lived together as extended families., adding slaves and slave owners were outraged when Union forces raided their homes. He said history books rarely make mention of this.
"When the master and his older sons went to war, who did he leave his families with?" asked Winbush, who grandfather remained with his former owners 12 years after the hostilities ended. "It was with the slaves. Were his (family members) mistreated? Hell, no!
"They were protected."
Winbush said more than 90,000 blacks, some of them free, fought for the Confederacy. He has said in the past that he would have fought by his grandfather's side in the 7th Tennessee Cavalry led by Gen. Nathan Bedford Forest.
After his presentation, Winbush opened the floor for questions. Two black women, including Jule Anderson of the Thomas County Historical Society Board of Directors, told him the Confederate battle flag made them uncomfortable.
Winbush, who said he started speaking out about the Civil War in 1992 after growing weary of what he dubbed "political correctness," was also challenged about his opinions.
"I have difficulty in trying to apply today's standards with what happened 150 years ago," he said to Anderson's tearful comments. "...That's what a lot of people are attempting to do. I'm just presenting facts, not as I read from some book where somebody thought that they understood. This came straight from the horse's mouth, and I refute anybody to deny that."
Thomas County Historical Society Board member and SVC member Chip Bragg moved in to close the session after it took a political turn when a white audience member voiced disapproval of the use of Confederate symbols on the state flag. Georgia voters are set to go to the polls a week from today to pick a flag to replace the 1956 version, which featured the St. Andrew's cross prominently.
"Those of us who are serious about our Confederate heritage are very unhappy with the trivialization of Confederate symbols and their misuse," he said. "Part of what we are trying to do is correct this misunderstanding."
So you accept the secession of the conventions, but not the Declarations from the conventions that say it was for slavery. You're rather choosy. lol
There were Declarations of Secession spelling out exactly why secession took place and they say the reason was slavery, the south's own wprds. The material prosperity of the North was greatly dependent on the Federal Government; that of the the South not at all. In the first years of the Republic the navigating, commercial, and manufacturing interests of the North began to seek profit and aggrandizement at the expense of the agricultural interests. Even the owners of fishing smacks sought and obtained bounties for pursuing their own business (which yet continue), and $500,000 is now paid them annually out of the Treasury. The navigating interests begged for protection against foreign shipbuilders and against competition in the coasting trade. Congress granted both requests, and by prohibitory acts gave an absolute monopoly of this business to each of their interests, which they enjoy without diminution to this day. Not content with these great and unjust advantages, they have sought to throw the legitimate burden of their business as much as possible upon the public; they have succeeded in throwing the cost of light-houses, buoys, and the maintenance of their seamen upon the Treasury, and the Government now pays above $2,000,000 annually for the support of these objects. Theses interests, in connection with the commercial and manufacturing classes, have also succeeded, by means of subventions to mail steamers and the reduction in postage, in relieving their business from the payment of about $7,000,000 annually, throwing it upon the public Treasury under the name of postal deficiency. The manufacturing interests entered into the same struggle early, and has clamored steadily for Government bounties and special favors. This interest was confined mainly to the Eastern and Middle non-slave-holding States. Wielding these great States it held great power and influence, and its demands were in full proportion to its power. The manufacturers and miners wisely based their demands upon special facts and reasons rather than upon general principles, and thereby mollified much of the opposition of the opposing interest. They pleaded in their favor the infancy of their business in this country, the scarcity of labor and capital, the hostile legislation of other countries toward them, the great necessity of their fabrics in the time of war, and the necessity of high duties to pay the debt incurred in our war for independence. Remember Lincoln was all in favor of an Amendment that would have guaranteed slavery forever, his inaugural speech spoke of allowing the states to secede as long as the turned over the imposts.
Lincoln was trying to save the union and knew an amendment could be repealed by another amendment later. Slavery couldn't be ended without union.
You simply can't comprehend the English language can you? Murder can be in varying degress, as can be sexual crimes. Especially foricbly against ones will. 350 Union soldiers were convicted of rape, another 11,000+ convicted of other Section 134 crimes including 'Assault-indecent', 'Assault with intent to commit rape', 'Assault with intent to commit sodomy', 'Indecent acts or liberties with a child', and 'Indecent acts with another'. And that was with 20,000 more courts-martial to examine.
My link clearly says unionists were not encouraged to participate. It was thuggery. Regardless, the conventions were illegitimate anyway because they were in volation of Article IV, Section 4.
They were to prevent arson, riots, and treason.
Could you please point to the link. If you allege vote fraud due to their participation being "not encouraged", wouldn't that mean that in the 1864 election vote fraud also occurred?
And they harassed the populace and committed rape at the same rate of the Union armies it appears.
2.the CSA High Command PUNISHED criminals HARSELY,QUICKLY and PUBLICALLY,
Not true. Governers of some states sent letters complaining that no action was being taken against rapists and murderers in the south's armies against their own people.
3.AND, unlike in the northern armies, WAR CRIMES were NOT an essential part of the overall war plan.
Prove they were with the Union armies. (Attacking supplies is not a war crime as we clearly saw in WW2)
NOT a SINGLE DOCUMENTED CASE!
at the WORST of times, Camp Sumpter & Castle Thunder were "wonderful rest homes", when compared to Point Lookout POWC, Elmira DEATH CAMP & other damnyankee "hellholes".
AND the south offered to FREE all union POWs, IF the north would do the same.
the damnyankees refused to do so because they SAID: "the rebels go free, go home & join other units, to fight us again."
otoh, when released the yankee prisoners went HOME, never to be seen again on the battlefield. they had "seen the elephant" & wanted no more.
free dixie,sw
All you have is 350 definite crimes against the populace. The other 11,000 could be anything against anybody, including fights among soldiers.
Permanent does not mean permanent? Wow. If the Confederacy really did want to secede to preserve slavery as alleged, why now would it continue down that path with it guaranteed forever? Why not just stay in the Union? Maybe there were other reasons ...
Go back about 800 posts. You've read it, we discussed it a long time. Is your memory fading? I'm not taking a half hour to backtrack.
If you allege vote fraud due to their participation being "not encouraged", wouldn't that mean that in the 1864 election vote fraud also occurred?
I'd say vote fraud occured in every election since our founding. The question is "to what extent?". Handing the gavels of power to those never elected by due process as was done at the conventions is as unrepublican as it gets.
Again, the charges were 'Assault-indecent', 'Assault with intent to commit rape', 'Assault with intent to commit sodomy', 'Indecent acts or liberties with a child', and 'Indecent acts with another'. Is it now your contention that these were acts between soldiers.
Are you alleging that the Army or the Republic was an army of homos and pedophiles?
One word: "Andersonville". You failed the truth test.
No, the Constitution can be amended.
Wow. If the Confederacy really did want to secede to preserve slavery as alleged,...
Not "alleged", proven by the Declarations.
...why now would it continue down that path with it guaranteed forever? Why not just stay in the Union? Maybe there were other reasons ...
They also knew the Constitution could be amended.
You've twisted the words. Your original words is that they "included" those charges, you have no definite numbers. Could be as little as 1 each. So you have about 353 or so.
Are you alleging that the Army or the Republic was an army of homos and pedophiles?
Not any moreso than the Confederate armies. "You sure got a purty mouth" originated in the southland, remember. lol
[You] Stand Watie is obviously insane.
Nonresponsive, not what I asked you.
Don't give them credit for wanting to stay in the Union for a good reason, or for liking their chances even with a Republican in the White House.
Hell, nc, I'll go the boy one better -- I've got arms! And I've got legs, too -- how about that? LOL!
Perhaps he's avoiding learning anything about naval bombardment due solely to the fact that NSWC and NSFSC are in a formerly Confederate state. Would't want those 'Southern' ones and zeroes invading Chitown, now would we?
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