Posted on 04/23/2018 9:24:19 PM PDT by Sontagged
One of the core beliefs at Bethel Church in Redding, California, is the need for new revelation from God, which is in contrast to the so-called old revelation of the Bible as it has been understood for the past 2,000 years.
New revelation can refer to many different things.
It includes knowledge about what’s currently taking place in heaven and new interpretations of Scripture that are based on direct revelation from the Holy Spirit, apart from a historical and grammatical hermeneutic.
It also includes what Johnson calls “new revelation of Jesus.”
And it includes creative ideas–such as fresh music lyrics that will result in mass conversions to Christianity and breakthrough inventions in science and medicine.
However, Bethel’s teachings about the need for new revelation inevitably shift the focus away from the written Word of God in Scripture, insofar as it has been understood for the past two millennia.
Their teachings also place Bethel outside of historic Protestant Christianity, based on the 16th century Protestant Reformation, which has taught that the church is to look to Scripture–not new revelations–for its beliefs and practices.
On this note, consider that even Pentecostals and charismatics–who believe in present-day miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as the gift of prophecy–have held that the Bible contains all that is necessary for living the Christian life. See, for example, a position paper published by the Assemblies of God—the world’s largest Pentecostal denomination—which upholds the sufficiency of Scripture.
It’s titled “The Inspiration, Inerrancy, and Authority of Scripture.” And see the post written by charismatic theologian Wayne Grudem titled “The Bible is enough.”
But, clearly, Bethel leaders disagree that the Bible is enough. To show you what Bethel teaches about new revelation, take a look at these words written by its senior leader, Bill Johnson.
Bill Johnson On The Need For New Revelation
“I’m convinced that the pace of revelation will increase very rapidly in these last hours of history…. That acceleration of revelation is beginning in our day… ... It’s about the purposes of God being unveiled on the planet. On-going revelation and encounters with the power of God launch us into understanding of things we’ve never understood before.” (The Supernatural Power of a Transformed Mind, page 68)
“It is absolutely impossible to live the normal Christian life without receiving regular revelation from God.” (The Supernatural Power of a Transformed Mind, page 58)
“The key is to be spiritually discerning–to open our spirit man to direct revelation from God.” (The Supernatural Power of a Transformed Mind, page 60)
“We are the most to be pitied if we think we’ve reached the fullness of what God intended for His Church here on earth. All Church history is built on partial revelation. Everything that has happened in the Church over the past 1900 years has fallen short of what the early Church had and lost. Each move of God has been followed by another, just to restore what was forfeited and forgotten. And we still haven’t arrived to the standard that they attained, let alone surpassed it. Yet, not even the early Church fulfilled God’s full intention for His people. That privilege was reserved for those in the last leg of the race. It is our destiny.
As wonderful as our spiritual roots are, they are insufficient. What was good for yesterday is deficient for today. To insist that we stay with what our fathers fought for is to insult our forefathers. They risked all to pursue something fresh and new in God. It’s not that everything must change for us to flow with what God is saying and doing. It’s just that we make too many assumptions about the rightness of what presently exists. Those assumptions blind us to the revelations still contained in Scripture. In reality, what we think of as the normal Christian life cannot hold the weight of what God is about to do.” (When Heaven Invades Earth, Kindle edition, pages 162-163, emphasis mine)
“I am convinced that as His government and Kingdom rule increase on this earth … the Church will receive revelation like we’ve never known…. But first we must learn to hunger for and receive revelation as part of our everyday lives. That revelation will help us to carry out our earthly assignments with greater precision and wisdom.” (The Supernatural Power of a Transformed Mind, page 56)
“There are vast resources of revelation in heaven for the areas of education and business, the arts and music, and these resources have yet to be tapped anywhere near to their fullness…. Our job is to tap the revelation of the Lord in our area of talent or gifting so that we can accurately and powerfully reflect the King and His Kingdom.” (The Supernatural Power of a Transformed Mind, page 67)
“Presently, every denomination, church, and group seems to have revelation into certain Kingdom matters. Nobody has the whole picture…. But in these last days God is going to release a Spirit of revelation over the Church… We are coming into an hour where there will be a common revelation…. an hour when the people of God will simultaneously hear and see similar revelations, no matter the church or group.” (The Supernatural Power of a Transformed Mind, page 68)
“The anointing on a coming generation will be great enough that the natural order of things will no longer apply. With a low-grade anointing and revelation, we have to live by natural principles and restrictions to get spiritual results. But Jesus brings this revelation, which is almost frightening.
He says, ‘Lift up your eyes,’ meaning, ‘With the way you see things right now, you cannot operate on the revelation I want to give you. But there is something available for a coming generation where the anointing is so extreme that every person will be ready for the harvest.'” (The Supernatural Power of a Transformed Mind, page 153) “Revelation comes piece by piece, layer upon layer, to generation after generation.” (Hosting the Presence, Kindle edition, page 52)
“In this hour the experience will help to open up those portions of Scripture that have been closed to us. No one in their right mind would claim to understand all that is contained in the Bible for us today. Yet to suggest that more is coming causes many to fear. Get over it, so you don’t miss it!” (When Heaven Invades Earth, Kindle edition, pages 104-105)
Allegedly, new revelations will enable Christians to perform greater miracles than those performed by Jesus, reap the greatest harvest of souls in history, and bring God’s kingdom to earth. We wouldn’t want to “miss it,” would we?
But, notably, apostles and prophets like Bethel’s own Bill Johnson and Kris Vallotton are the gatekeepers to these new revelations.
So here’s Bethel Redding’s bottom line on new revelation: you’ve gotta have it, and they got it.
But are you willing to trust their interpretation of what God really means rather than contending for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3)? —– Holly Pivec is the co-author of A New Apostolic Reformation?: A Biblical Response to a Worldwide Movement and God’s Super-Apostles: Encountering the Worldwide Prophets and Apostles Movement. She has a master’s degree in Christian apologetics from Biola University.
By the way, are you aware of the huge demographic shift that has taken place in the past 120 years or so? Around 1900 roughly 90-95% of Christians lived in the northern hemisphere (the Christian West). Today, roughly 66-75% of Christians live in the southern hemisphere — Africa, Asia, and Latin America.
Much of this shift has been driven by anemic theology and practice in the established (centuries old) churches (the decline portion), along with a gospel with signs following (supernatural power) coupled with indigenous church growth principles (the rapidly growing portion).
Perhaps we should fear the LACK OF signs and wonders in our churches if we care about people coming to Jesus for salvation and all that it entails.
As both Moses and Christ warn, we are never to “seek” a sign or a wonder:
“Only a wicked and perverse generation seeketh after a sign”
Instead, we have to have faith that, as the Word teaches, “signs and wonders will FOLLOW believers”.
Do you get that? Signs and wonders will follow believers. It’s not up to us to manifest them, it’s up to the Lord.
And yes, I am fully charismatic and Pentecostal, but I believe this NAR crap to be just that, antiChrist crap, so stop trying to conflate NAR idiocy with actual giftings of the Spirit in the Church today.
You have made your opinions abundantly clear, as have I.
Thanks for your time.
That’s an EXCELLENT point and an excellent example.
So the test of everything is SCRIPTURE and whether what is being said lines up with that, not whether there is a sign or miracle following.
Consider the following.....
Matthew 16:4 An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah.” So he left them and departed.
Tell me, what is the mission of the church here on earth?
And what do signs and wonders in the church have to do with people coming to Jesus?
Are you expecting people to come to your church to get saved or something?
Thanks, but my quoting Moses/Christ’s statements about “not seeking after a sign” because “only a perverse and wicked generation seeketh after a sign” are not “my opinion”.
It’s the absolute truth. As in, Bible fact. Not my “opinion”.
And just to be absolutely clear, Peter tells us that “scripture is not for any private interpretation”... which means, there is only one underlying meaning about “not seeking after a sign”... there is no way to dance around what either Moses or Jesus meant when they said it.
And again I say this as a full charismatic Pentecostal, who stands on the efficacy and sufficiency of the Word. But thanks for sharing.
LOL, you are slamming Holly Pivec here without reading any of her books or other articles linked on her site (which is a website dedicated to deconstruction the lies of the NAR?)
LOL again.
You demonstrate a weird and specious sophistry in defense of nutjob NAR principles.
“And what do signs and wonders in the church have to do with people coming to Jesus?”
If you have to ask that question, then I doubt anything I can say would sway your opinion.
However, the biblical answer would be confirmation of God’s word (the message preached) — refer to scriptures previously referenced.
“Tell me, what is the mission of the church here on earth?”
Well, there would be
1) the great commission, Mark 16:14-20
2) a body for corporate worship, 1 Corinthians 12:13
3) conformity to the image of Christ, Ephesians 4:11-16
Anyway, your perspective has been made obvious, as has mine.
I appreciate the time you have taken to interact.
There’s also the *Christian tarot card* nonsense that Bethel promotes.
Damage control: Bethel Church’s statement about the ‘Christian Tarot card’ controversy leaves many questions unanswered
You didn’t answer the question.
You didn’t answer the first question.
If someone claims to be an apostle and teaches a "new" gospel, then it becomes a "new" religion, not the same as Jesus taught. Since Scripture says God is unchanging, then the sender wasn't God. A "new" revelation is fine as long as it agrees with the 1st revelation. If a prophesy is made and it doesn't come to pass, should we kill them?
Making sodomy acceptable to God messes up much of the purpose of the Bible if Jesus used "as it was in the days of Lot", as a descriptor of His imminent return. The days of Noah describes extensive violence. As I watch trucks running over people on sidewalks and 50 people being shot watching a concert for no reason, One might forget the millions of babies murdered in the womb with almost no fanfare each year.
We don't need a new apostle giving us new revelation if it disagrees with the old apostles and the old revelation.
As an example, a church I actually attended, voted in a new pastor after the old one left. I had been there probably about 7 years. The new guy preached fairly good sermons, but periodically would put some statement in I found fault with. As time went on, I found out he was enamored with Bill Johnson. I was the Sunday school teacher there and he gave me several books to read by Johnson. The books were alarming for me, but I didn't get too upset. As he gave me another book, I told him I had enough to read in the Bible to keep me busy for a lifetime. A couple of weeks later, he dissolved Sunday School. Said he need more time to preach and still get out for lunch. Later, he was overheard saying those over 55 yo should just leave to get rid of the Pharisees in the church. We were too judgmental.
Then one day he was giving his sermon and claimed that Jesus was NOT GOD until he was baptized by John in the river. He gave another sermon where Jesus met the woman at the well and he claimed Jesus didn't know why he stopped at the well. He was just tired and needed water. Well, I was taught that Jesus was the Son of God when He was born of Mary because the angel said so then. If Jesus is God, He is Omniscient. If Jesus is God, He is the Word spoken of in John 1. If he is the Word, He wrote the Bible. He surely knows what's in it and why it's there.
I left.
I hear from other members that they are looking for falling gold dust and feathers falling from the ceiling of the church now. This all came about over the period of 2-3 years. Upon further study, I found out California has sent 7-8 "missionaries" that meet in a town about 75 miles from my town and they have spread this same message to 20-30 churches in East Texas now. This has gotten bigger than a few outliers. Many now are selling DVD courses and you can visit the Redmond base church for courses if you pay. These courses are as much as $4500 for about 6 weeks. IMO, this has surpassed the idea of a cult and gone on to a denomination. They generally use music to draw in the young people. I recently found a worship team I love called "Upper Room" in Dallas, and the first sermon I heard was straight out of Bill Johnson's playbook. It's way past time for an expose on 60 minutes. There are too many today that have NO IDEA what's in Scripture.
Today, there remains about 8-12 left from about 150. Those that come, come from as far as 60-70 miles away. I don't know how they keep the lights on. I've also heard he has preached whole sermons out of a Bill Johnson book with no scripture to back it up. He quoted Johnson from the pulpit. I knew Bill Johnson was a problem, but I didn't know there were more.
Just as another aside, Todd White used to go there in Bethel, but recently is found in Gateway church in Dallas. I love Gateway, but they have 5-6 campuses and many tens of thousands of members with BIG names going there. I can't discern if Todd left BECAUSE of error, or if he came to spread "Bill Johnson". He has been used as a preacher a few times. I hate to be suspicious but it's almost like cancer and I've seen it first hand. I can't believe Robert Morris would release the pulpit to a usurper.
The reason these NAR churches stay in business is that their corporate entities all “tithe” to each other, church entity to church entity, thereby getting around the problem of individual church members voluntarily supporting the “laborer (of the Word) who deserves his wages”.
That’s what I witnessed in my former NAR church. I imagine this practice is widespread and you can understand the corruption that stems from a “church entity” tithing to another “church entity”, instead of the preacher relying upon voluntary donations of people to those leaders who feed them spiritually.
Ponzi schemes like this betray all false teachers/false prophets.
Sorry; this post was to sweaver and I realized it after I incorrectly ccd it to you and metmom. My response was not directed at you. I apologize. I hope that you can forgive me. Norski
But then it isn’t really a new revelation then, is it?
And it also isn’t needed either since we already have the old revelation to reveal it to us.
So if the new revelation is already in Scripture, it’s redundent, therefore not needed and can be ignored, and if it doesn’t agree with Scripture, then we know it’s not from God and again, can be ignored.
Very interesting testimony.
I know another person who used to be in Benny Hinn’s church before he went off the rails.
This person said that the church went from a warm, loving, Spirit-filled congregation to ice cold demonic.(His descriptive words)
They left the church as did many of the godly members.
I always ask The Mormons where is the Bible incorrectly translated, and if it correctly translated, then I don’t need the Book of Mormon.
“Thank you for your observations. In my comments I try and directly address specific comments in the post I am responding to, but will strive to be succinct.”
It would be better for you to strive to be brief. You obfuscate.
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