Posted on 04/17/2018 8:56:07 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
Have you been burned by a false prophecy? Did you lose your faith when a promised healing never came? Have you had it with flaky teaching in the name of "new revelation"? If so, you are not alone. There are more Charismatic casualties than many of us would care to admit.
But let me start here with an honest confession. My own experience in Pentecostal-Charismatic circles has been far more positive than negative. I have worked with the same leadership team for more than 20 years. I have had the privilege of serving with men and women of integrity all around the world – I'm talking about Pentecostal-Charismatic leaders around the globe.
I was saved in a Pentecostal church in 1971 and transformed by an outpouring of the Spirit in 1982. I was on the front lines of the Brownsville Revival from 1996-2000, and grads from our ministry school are bearing amazing fruit around the world. And while I have seen my share of scandals and false prophecies and leadership abuses and weirdness, it has been the exception far more than the rule.
Sadly, for many others, the opposite has proved true. For them, there is little or nothing good in the Pentecostal-Charismatic movement. They have been hurt or confused or abused, causing some to reject the move of the Spirit today and causing others to lose their faith entirely. My heart breaks over all these Charismatic casualties, and it is high time that we set our house in order.
I recently read a book critiquing the movement, and in my opinion, it was totally over the top in its criticisms.
Putting aside the scriptural errors I found in the book, it painted a terribly caricatured picture, one that was so exaggerated it was hardly recognizable to me. Yet as I read reviews to the book posted by readers, I saw that many of them were adding their hearty Amen. The picture it painted was all too familiar to them.
I'm aware, of course, that every church (or ministry or denomination or leader) has its critics. You can find horror stories everywhere, and if a church or ministry is big enough, you can find lots of negative reports from those who were allegedly burned by that church or ministry. But when you hear the same story over and over again from people from varied backgrounds, you know that something, somewhere is wrong.
When it comes to the Pentecostal-Charismatic movement, there is no shortage of amazing stories of what the Lord is doing in virtually every nation on the planet. This is truly a stunning, Jesus-exalting, multi-generational work of the Holy Spirit. I see no way to deny that for a split second.
Even more importantly, based on Scripture, I find it indisputable that the gifts and power of the Spirit are to continue in operation until Jesus returns.
But that doesn't minimize the damage that has been done in the name of the Spirit, and there are all too many casualties because of unchecked abuses. Out of love for the Lord and love for His people, we need to step higher.
Although my new book, "Playing with Holy Fire", just came out a few days ago, I'm already seeing a pattern in the reviews being posted by readers.
One reader wrote, "Dr. Michael Brown's very timely and balanced work really addressed where I am right now: disillusioned and heartbroken over the abuses of the contemporary church (this goes beyond the Charismatic/Pentecostal movement, though it is centered there). Furthermore, he encouraged my heart, showing me that I am not alone, and providing a Biblical way forward."
Another commented on Facebook that reading the book was bringing them healing from the negative experiences they had in our circles. Still another wrote, "As a former cessationist who was a cessationist BECAUSE of the abuse I saw happening in exercising the Holy Spirit's gifts, it concerns me too. Both because these abuses keep a very large section of the church away from desiring and pursuing something God wants them to have, but also because it harms our testimonies among unbelievers. This book will definitely be going to the top of my reading list!"
Other pastors and leaders are saying, "At last! These abuses needed to be addressed."
So, while I rejoice in what the Spirit is doing around the world, I grieve over the many who have been hurt and disillusioned because of human error and human sin and human carelessness. Truly, we have been given much by the Lord. And that means that much will be required of us.
May we walk worthy of the Holy Spirit's high calling. And may the name of Jesus be exalted, not tarnished, by our lives and ministries as Pentecostal and Charismatic believers.
The stakes are way too high to play games.
Being fully equipped,. though, is not Scripturally held that a person operates in all the gifts of the Spirit. According to Scripture, it's Scripture itself that reuslts in the person being fully equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17)
As bb pointed out, the SPIRIT apportions then as HE will.
The purpose isn't that every believer receive every gift. Different believers receive different gifts that they are to operate within the church body so that IT is complete in function as the different members operate in their respective gifts together as a body.
And as far as two groups of people speaking in tongues, that in no way sets precedent that all believers speak in tongues when filled with the Holy Spirit.
Because of my association with acquaintances who are Pentecostal/prosperity gospel types, I did a search on every verse I could find in Scripture that deals with the Holy Spirit, the filling, the baptism, praying in the Spirit etc.
What I found was that there were only four different distinct times that tongues was spoken when someone was filled with the Spirit.
The other times people were filled with the Spirit, other things happened instead.
So filling did not always result in tongues speaking.
Right. This was a big point of contention in my then charismatic church, and I could not understand the insistence on tongues when people underwent the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
And again, we can’t deny its inclusion or proper practice for the New Testament church, we can only be vigilant to make sure its not a sideshow or somehow used when “people seek after a sign”.
Signs and wonders are to follow believers; we are never to seek them. (And I know you know that!)
Glad to hear that you disagree with those who insist everyone born again must speak in tongues. Do you agree that these so-called "miraculous sign gifts" can be counterfeited? How are believers to tell the difference? What is called speaking in tongues today - as far as the vast majority are concerned - are ecstatic, babbling utterances that are NOT in any language known to man. When the first instances of this gift were given, foreigners who did not speak the same language of the disciples HEARD the gospel in their own language (Acts 2:6-8). Does the same thing happen today?
No, I don't think the gifts were only relegated to the 1st Century Jewish believers and converted Gentiles to Christ among them, but why does it seem that the showy, attention grabbing ones are emphasized over those that actually edify ALL? I don't picture Paul - who said he spoke in tongues more than others - sitting alone in his room playing around with it like a toy. It had a purpose. With the completed Scriptures being translated into over a thousand languages today, of what use is tongues outside of being able to evangelize those whose language is not yet known? But, IS that what modern day tongues-speakers do - preach the gospel to those whose language they don't know? I don't see it. CAN it happen today? Sure...I'm not about to deny the power of God to accomplish His will in any way He deems. He is a God of miracles.
How about this...instead of condemning each other for nonsense or heresy, why don't we honestly discuss the points, bring forth our proof texts and, if necessary, agree to disagree? I think the enemy of our souls would be delighted to cause dissension over this and it probably IS one reason why there are counterfeits. We should judge our experiences by Scripture, not the other way around.
I told a youngster once that calling oneself a Christian but not relying on His Grace as saved and sealed for the day of redemption (playing the game of works to earn redemption, as in Mormonism, etc.( is taking the Lord’s name in vain.
Additionally, just because some gifts may no longer be given (i.e., Apostles, Prophets) to the Church, it doesn't mean we are "gift-less". That would be an error. Perhaps the PURPOSE for a specific gift has passed. Is God not allowed to do that?
I’ve heard it, too. Sounds like they were not Bereans.
I’ve been told by more than one Pentecostal, people I am close to, that if I didn’t speak in tongues, I wasn’t really Spirit baptized/filled, no matter what I experienced.
Sure, God *did something* but when I get the baptism with tongues, it will be way better.
One person even told me that the evidence is different than the gift of tongues and that if the evidence of tongues wasn’t there, I wasn’t baptized in the Spirit.
Course, there’s always the confusion of what exactly the terms mean and since different people use it to mean different things, you have to figure out where they are coming from first, and when you try to pin down exactly what they mean by *baptism* they can’t even define it.
For some people it happens at salvation, when they receive the Holy Spirit. According to others, you can receive the Holy Spirit without being baptized in Him. But it seems that even people who use those terms do not do so with consistency and cannot often even figure out what they mean themselves.
Sigh......
I doubt that many people realize that *speaking in tongues* is not necessarily restricted to Christianity and Spirit filled Christians.
There are other religions that practice it as well, so yes, it can be faked.
As far as other *manifestations, there is something called the *kundalini spirit* that has infected the church and produces the kind of manifestations that people now say are from God, things like being slain in the Spirit, *drunken glory*, *holy laughter* etc.
I found this video some time ago that I thought was very interesting dealing with it.
The Kundalini Spirit has Invaded The Church Masquerading as The Holy Spirit !!! BE VIGILANT!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfXmDkQiE2o
Ping to post 109
I would agree.
Presenting oneself as a Christian when you are not.
Yes. All I can explain is how I came to have a modicum of authority on the subject.
1. Spiritual experiences in the church can never go "beyond what is written" in the Word or cross the boundaries of the spiritual experiences that are found in the Bible. In other words, no additions, even in spiritual experiences, unless it is found in Scripture.
2. If a metaphoric prophecy is given, meaning if flowery, Bibical sounding language is used, then you check this language to make sure even the metaphors or elements described in the prophecy are used in same manner as the Word.
You would be surprised how "Biblical sounding" language tricks most people into submission. (But then, that's the whole problem of the Book of Mormon! It sounds so Bible-ish.)
3. Understanding that there are seducing spirits and "doctrines of demons" or, more precisely, demons who deliver doctrines. This is where most of the people of the NAR that i have heard and tested get caught, if anyone wants to catch them.
I believe it is familiar spirits that animate their "personal prophecies" over people and why there is some definite "accuracy" about what they say.
But it's the same familiar spirit that Paul cast out of the fortune teller girl; and like Satan himself, these spirits will always give themselves away at some point.
4. Supernatural signs. The shaking thing puzzled me the most in charismatic circles, because I knew the people it was happening to, and I also believe that the Holy Spirit is a spirit of self control, so He will never overpower a believer with a shaking or slain in the spirit thing.
So I looked it up in the Bible to see what it might mean on God's terms, when people start to shake in meetings.
Was shocked. The only place in the Bible where anyone shakes is Jeremiah. And he is shaking in his bones because he is horrified by being in the presence of evil false prophets. I truly believe this is a supernatural sign for believers to "get the H*** out" of these antiChrist prophetic meetings.
5. Dreams, visions, prophecies etc. The first thing we have to do is realize the Bible interprets itself. When God turns a phrase or uses a symbol (let's say "mud") you have to have faith that if God is giving you a dream about mud, mud will be interpreted in your dream in the same way it is used in the Bible. This is because God cannot contradict Himself.
If a dream or vision or prophesy is given, it will line up in these details with however these symbols or elements are used in the Word. (try the Lord in this, next time you have a perplexing dream. You will be amazed.)
6. Learning to recognize metaphor versus commonsense practice in the Bible. The most lamentable practice I've seen in charismatic churches is the employment of the words "I bind you Satan!" or "I bind the strongman of poverty" or some other such nonsense.
Binding and loosing has to do with the Jewish idea of spiritual authority. Moses had the power of binding and loosing when he judged the everyday problems of the Hebrews daily lives. Solomon had it. And Peter was given it (and so are we, when we are leaders in a church)... it means that you will be given the insight into what Heaven thinks on a matter, as Peter knew Ananias and Sapphiras lied to the Holy Spirit and died. "Binding the strongman or the strongest man in a house" is an apt metaphor that Jesus was employing to describe what happens when a spirit is rendered impotent by presence of the Holy Spirit.
I'm not doing justice to this problem but it doesn't mean that we are to pray "I bind the strongman of hate"... because Jesus just meant to show that His power takes care of the demonic.
FInally, charismatics pray about "strongholds" as mentioned by Paul "we are to pull down every stronghold, everything that resists the power of God"... They pray incorrectly thus: "I break this stronghold in the name of Jesus".
Well, that's just stupid. A stronghold is a set of wrong thinking, usually of unbelief or fear or doubt in an individual's life. So to "break it" by a shouted prayer is ridiculous. You must lovingly apply the Word in discussion with this person, to see if you might win them to Christ, because salvation comes through our minds, what we think and therefore what we believe of in Jesus.
My hands are getting tired if typing. But charismatics also don't realize that when John said "test the spirits my beloved... those who deny that Jesus came in the flesh are antichrist" charismatics will simply ask a person that is demonized "do you believe Jesus came in the flesh?" And if the person says yes, then they believe they have "tested the spirits".
This is most ridiculous, again. What John means, by testing, is that we put what the spirits are teaching theologically to the test of the Word, as did the Bereans.
But charismatics on the whole don't read the word. Too much into wanting to find Jesus put gemstones in their backyards.
I'm forgetting to test for flattering spirits in false prophecy. That's a good one.
Will come back later. GBU
It’s pretty clear in the Word.
SOME and only “some” speak in tongues. The earlier posts you made are the correct way to think about this.
Good question. The Old Covenant died the moment the Curtain was torn supernaturally by God when Jesus died on the Cross on Calvary.
So the manner in which believers in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob worshipped, (i.e. ritual in the Temple) died once that Curtain was torn in half.
The curtain was where God’s spirit dwelled.
John the Baptist was the last of the Old Testament prophets. They preached in this same dispensation of Temple sacrifice, they were, in effect the “Holy Spirit” to people and mostly to the Jews.
And most importantly, these Old Testament prophets, including David and Moses WROTE THE WORD OF GOD.
No one now, in this church age, can have the same position as the Old Testament Prophets who wrote the Word!
NO one now can try to go back and be an old Testament prophet, because we have now a better gift. The gift of the Holy Spirit.
In same manner, no one alive now can pretend to be on par with the New Testament Apostles. They also lived under a different dispensation as we do. They lived during the transition time of Christ’s earthly ministry on earth.
They were eyewitnesses to Christ’s time on earth. And no one today can call themselves an Apostle on par with them because they were first hand witnesses to Christ and THEY WROTE THE WORD OF GOD.
No one today can take away their positions, or inhabit the positions of the Apostles. They sit in a special place in heaven, reserved for them alone.
They lived under a different dispensation than we do, in terms of function and position.
We are under the dispensation of Pentecost, which came after Jesus ascended to Heaven, and indeed, THIS WAS THE REASON Jesus said “I must go to the Father” and instructed His disciples to wait (with His mom) in the upper room... so this better thing, the outpouring of His spirit would be given to all who ask.
So we must guard against abuses of these Pentecostal gifts. Prophecy now can never contradict the Word, but only uphold it and encourage faith. And we are never to give a personal prophetic word more weight than the Word in our minds.
This is why Paul says “prophecies will fail” but Jesus says “heaven and earth shall pass away, but the Word is Eternal”.
I wish there are more Charismatics as level headed as you.
This group I separated myself from, one woman claims to dream prophetically all the time, has people who think she’s very skilled in dream interpretation, she’s always binding and casting out some demon or other.
Basically what it comes down to is that she really believes this stuff and says it with such confidence and surety that people believe her.
She also claims that God likes her, not just loves her, and that He doesn’t care what she does, whether she sins or not. her husband thinks God is mighty in her.
There’s no reasoning with that couple.
Your faith has been wounded, mm; I will be praying for you. Try to forgive that Jezebel “who calls herself a prophetess, but leads my people into immorality as she preaches the so called dark things of Satan”
My paraphrase, but note, Jesus is being actually sarcastic here in Revelation “the so called dark things of Satan” when He discusses people like this who we both known in the charismatic church.
Sounds like this person used the argument that “I have more gifts than you do, nyah nyah nyah!” on everyone as well as “Jesus talks really special to me, He said He really likes me, but He doesn’t talk that way to you, cause you’re not as special as me!” in manner that actually wounds.
The Lord wants to talk to all of us the way He spoke to Adam in the Garden. That is the point of the Cross... I’ll pray that He pours out a new freshness on you personally, and ask Him to help you forgive that hurtful Jezzie nut.
Bless you metmom, you have blessed me for years here on FR.
There is a tremendous amount of spiritual pride evident within Pentecostalism. They are the *have’s* and the rest of us are the *have not’s* (tongues)
Thanks for your prayers and thank you so much for this thread.
It has been a huge help as I continue to have to deal with charismatic friends who still talk like this.
PM coming.....
Just to clarify...what you are calling the gift of prophecy is NOT the same thing as the revelation God gave to His holy Prophets. That their prophecies would NOT fail was a hallmark and sign that they were TRUE prophets. God warned His people against false prophets and said one of the major ways they would know the difference was in whether or not what the prophet said came to pass (see Deuteronomy 18:22)
The word "prophecy" or "prophesize" can also mean to teach, refute, reprove, admonish, comfort others. I believe it is this kind of NT special knowledge or prophecy that can "fail", "cease", "become useless", "pass away", etc. God's word will NEVER pass away, therefore what He has spoken through His prophets will also not pass away or fail.
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