The "Ecumenical Mass" Has Started

Gloria TV ^ | September 16, 2017 | Gloria TV

[ebb tide]

The group "Spezzare il pane" ("Breaking the Bread") in the archdiocese of Turin, Italy, has officially started with the celebration of "ecumenical masses" where Holy Communion is distributed to Catholics and non-Catholics.

The group is headed by Father Fredo Oliviero, an apologist for illegal immigration, who has the support of his archbishop, Monsignor Cesare Nosiglia. The practice of the group to distribute Holy Communion to non-Catholics, is openly promoted in the newspaper of Turin Archdiocese "La Voce e il Tempo".

Among the members of the group are "Catholics", Anglicans, Baptists, Waldensians and Lutherans. They gather once a month in one of their churches, where they celebrate a "Eucharist" according to the respective denomination, distributing "Communion" to everybody.

According to Fra Cristoforo, writing on maurizioblondet.it, these abuses are recommended by Pope Francis. Archbishop Nosiglia is informed about them but does not intervene. The future goal is to spread such gatherings to other Italian cities.

Distributing Holy Communion to people who do not share the Catholic Faith and have not previously confessed their sins, profanes the Holy Species, leads the participants to condemnation, and promotes superstition.

[Flaming Conservative]

His work was His death, burial, and resurrection. His work was sacrificing Himself to be a living sacrifice for our sin and sin nature. The Lord’s supper was His Passover, to mark what He was about to be - the sacrificial Lamb. And as during the first Passover, the presence of the blood of the lamb caused the destroying angel to pass over the house so marked, His sacrifice allows all who trust in His sacrifice, to be “passed over”, protected, from the destruction that awaits those who will NOT trust the Lamb and His sacrifice. Faith without works is dead, but nowhere does Scripture tell us that taking communion is a work required for salvation. Yes, He does say in another place, “if you do not eat my body...”. And, “Do this in remembrance of Me”, Jesus said. He didn’t say do this to be saved, to become a follower of Jesus. He did say this cup is the New Covenant of blood, to be poured out for you. Obviously, he was speaking representationally, not literally. He was only present with them for this celebration that one last time, though over the 3 years of his public ministry, He had doubtless celebrated Passover with them, before. And Passover was once a year. Here, at this last Passover supper with Him, He is explaining the true meaning of the original Passover, that it is at last, HIS body, HIS blood that will be shed for them and for us. He says it all in the 6th chapter of Book of John: 28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. 30They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? 31Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 34Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 48I am that bread of life. 49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

59These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

Many Disciples Turn Away
(Matthew 8:18-22; Luke 9:57-62; Luke 14:25-33)

60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 61When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
That word, “eat”, is used both literally and figuratively, and yet the Jews in the synagogue, and many of His followers, took it literally. Because He had not given up His body and blood, they thought He might possibly be speaking literally. But as you can see from his own explanation, he is talking about beliefs, and accepting the sacrifice He was about to make, that they literally, could not grasp. When He was buried, His disciples and apostles were heartbroken. They hadn’t understood, at all, that He was going to sacrifice himself, then be resurrected.
To take this passage, and believe that it says the work of salvation is to take communion, is a belittling of the work that Jesus is. His blood was poured out. When He was resurrected, He didn’t say to the disciples, “Handle Me. See that I am flesh and blood”. He said, “I am flesh and bone”. That was not a slip if the tongue. Jesus didn’t make slips of the tongue. He presented His blood to the Father, in the Holy of Holies, in Heaven, in the Temple there. “Do this in remembrance of me”. That word remembrance, in the Greek, means recollection. Recall what was done, and what it represented. This we do, but as a commemoration, not as a means of salvation. I don’t want to argue with anyone. I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind. Especially against their will. I’m just stating what I believe, as is anyone who posts here. God bless us each, as we go about our lives.

[vladimir998]

“The fact remains that a pope cannot claim to dispose himself of the governing aspect of the Church, but claim to hold the contemplative aspect.”

Says you. The pope said differently.

“This is an intrinsically flawed position that violates Cannon 188.”

First, it’s “Canon” not “Cannon” Law. Second, it in no way violated 188: “Can. 188 A resignation made out of grave fear that is inflicted unjustly or out of malice, substantial error, or simony is invalid by the law itself.”

Third, the operative canon is 323.2: “If it happens that the Roman Pontiff resigns his office, it is required for validity that the resignation is made freely and properly manifested but not that it is accepted by anyone.”

BUT NOT THAT IT IS ACCEPTED BY ANYONE. That would include you.

“Benedict, in his own words of “resignation” stated his purpose of doing that which is illicit: bifurcating the papacy. His resignation is therefore fundamentally flawed and invalid.”

I don’t know what you’re talking about. This is what he said: “For this reason, and well aware of the seriousness of this act, with full freedom I declare that I renounce the ministry of Bishop of Rome, Successor of Saint Peter, entrusted to me by the Cardinals on 19 April 2005, in such a way, that as from 28 February 2013, at 20:00 hours, the See of Rome, the See of Saint Peter, will be vacant and a Conclave to elect the new Supreme Pontiff will have to be convoked by those whose competence it is.”

http://en.radiovaticana.va/storico/2013/02/11/pope_benedict_xvi_announces_his_resignation_at_end_of_month/en1-663815

http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/speeches/2013/february/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20130211_declaratio.html

I don’t know where you’re getting this stuff from. It doesn’t seem to be based on the actual documents.

[vladimir998]

“Not in Scripture. There is no sacramental system that imputes any grace.”

Imputes? No. Gives? Yes. Example: Acts 22:16: “Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins washed away, calling upon his name.”

Only grace can wash away sins. And notice it is WASH AWAY and not pretend they aren’t there or gee, we’ll impute they’re gone. No, they’re washed away - through grace through a sacrament.

http://www.therealpresence.org/essentials/sacraments/acc33.htm

I might be able to take your comments more seriously if you were attacking what Catholics actually believe, but your comment about “There is no sacramental system that imputes any grace” shows you don’t even know what the Catholic Church teaches let alone what the Bible says.

[vladimir998]

You posted quite a bit and most of it was the standard fare of someone who knows Protestantism but not the Bible or orthodox Christianity. That’s fine. I expect as much on FR. You, for instance, wrote:

“And, “Do this in remembrance of Me”, Jesus said. He didn’t say do this to be saved, to become a follower of Jesus.”

You seem to forget Christ’s own words in John 6:

53 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54 Whoever eats[s] my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

Now, am I saying that the Eucharist is a necessary prerequisite for Heaven in every man’s case? No. But Jesus clearly believes it is connected with “eternal life”. The connection is grace.

[Flaming Conservative]

Well, obviously this ongoing tug of war will one day be settled for one and all. I look forward to that day, though of course, not so our argument can be settled, but as our eternal presence with the Lord. As the song says, “What a day that will be, when my Jesus I shall see. When I look upon His face, the One who saved me by His grace. When He takes me by the hand and leads me to the promise land, what a day, glorious day, that will be”.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“”Excuse the obvious question: “Scripture” - insofar as that which composes the books of “the Bible” - did not exist for the first 400 years of the Church.”

2/3 of the Scriptures were written before the birth of Christ.
All we written before 100 ad.

“And since it was the Catholic Church who authored the book we know as the Bible,”

It was not. The Holy Spirit is the Author of Scripture. Don’t steal. It’s a sin.

“then it is for the Catholic Church to discern its meaning in context ... which is why we say the Catholic Church is a “teaching Church” “

Again, it is the Holy Spirit guides believers into all truth. Don’t steal. It’s a sin.

” So, what did Christians have as a spiritual guide in the nearly four centuries before the Bible existed? They had the TRADITION of the Church.”

The Holy Spirit, the Father, the Son.

“If there are no sacraments, then what was the point of Christ’s instructions to the Apostles in regard to forgiving sins and holding them bound (Confession)”

In Greek it does not say that.

“If there exist no sacraments in the Church, then just what is Baptism?”

A command that is a public testimony to non-believers that this soul has decided to follow Christ.

“If there are no sacraments, then just what is the descent of the Holly Ghost upon the apostles? (Confirmation)”

Not a sacrament, but an event that Christ promised and told them to wait for.

“If there are no sacraments, then just what is the Eucharist as was consubstantiated by Christ at the “Last supper” on the eve of His Passion? “This is my Body ...” “This is my Blood ...””

It was not. It was part of the traditional Passover meal that Christ commanded be done in memory of Him until a His return.

“If there are no sacraments, then how is it that Christ sanctified marriage, and declared its indissolubility?”

He reiterated what God said from the beginning. He also corrected a. Ok on sin among a sect of Jewish leaders.

“If there is no priesthood, and all can believe whatever they personally wish to believe, then why bother having apostles (bishops) at all? Why not simply have Christ miraculously produce a Bible, ready to go?”

1. Priest is not a NT Church office in any list.
2. He did, using people he chose.

“BTW - if every belief is valid, then, logically, none are valid. Logic dictates that two diametrically opposing views cannot both be right.”

I agree. This is why I’m taking time to correct what you wrote without benefit of studying the Scriptures FRiend. It

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“There is no sacramental system that imputes any grace” shows you don’t even know what the Catholic Church teaches let alone what the Bible says.

I know what the Roman church teaches about a sacramental system is not in Scripture and cannot save.

[SubMareener]

Not to worry! He will come for you like a thief in the night!! :-)

[SubMareener]

Here is the schedule of coming events. Get ready!

I am not claiming to be a Prophet. I am claiming to be a student of Abba Father YHWH's Word. I have listened to the Bible being read for several years now, and studied the text in Hebrew/Aramaic and Greek at the same time. When you get that familiar with the whole story, you begin to see connections that are often missed.

For example: Why did Jesus walk on the sea to catch up to his disciples? (Matthew 14:24) Just to show that He could? No! He did it to tell us that He was "the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river" (Daniel 12:08) This means that the key to understanding the end-times is in a proper dividing of Daniel 12:11-12.

Daniel 12
8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, “My lord, what shall be the end of these things?”
9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 “Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.
11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 “Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.
13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

Nelson, Thomas. Holy Bible, New King James Version (NKJV) (p. 875). Thomas Nelson. Kindle Edition.

The words in italics were added by the translators, verse 11 reads: “And from the time the daily is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, one thousand two hundred and ninety days." So 1260+30 days after "the daily" is taken away, the anti-Christ will set up the abomination of desolation, and we know that that is 1260 from the start of Daniel's 70th week and 1260 days from the end.

So what is "the daily" that will be "taken away"? Well, it is certainly not the daily sacrifices that the Jews will present in the Third Temple, because that is what the anti-Christ will do at the midpoint. So who offers themselves as "living sacrifices" (Romans 12:1) and asks for "daily bread" (Matthew 6:11) but those who believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior and LORD?

Luke 21:36 “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
Nelson, Thomas. Holy Bible, New King James Version (NKJV) (p. 1023). Thomas Nelson. Kindle Edition.

P.S. "confirming the covenant with many" is the sealing of the 144,000. Who would accept a peace deal that had a time limit on it? Also, the Two Witnesses show up 10 days afterwards, and preach for 1260 days. They are killed 20 days before the AtcD giving them time to lay in the streets for 3.5 days. My reading is that when they are raised up, the reaping of the Tribulation Saints (Rev 14:12-17; 15:2-4) takes place, since it says they are taken out of Great Tribulation (Rev 7:9-17).

So, if I am still here in October, 2017, it will be because I was not "found worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass." How about you?

If this doesn't happen, then these dates have all been one big coincidence:

1. Only 2 remaining unfulfilled feasts, Trumpets & Atonement are fulfilled in exact correlation to the number of days given Daniel by the angel Gabriel.
2. Our timeline BEGINS EXACTLY on the beginning of the new Jewish year 5778.
3. 5778/Rosh Hoshana/Feast of Trumpets/Revelation 12 Sign Alignment/Jesus Birth Month.
4. 30 DAY GAP/New Moon again. /Tribulation Begins.
5. Midpoint Passover/AOD/IS THE HISTORIC Crucifixion Date of Jesus Christ.
6. 3.5 years from 1st blood moon 4/15/14 to beginning of trib on the timeline.
7. 7 years (-14 days) 1st blood moon to trib midpoint on the timeline.
8. 10 years from the second blood moon to the Blessed Day Kingdom Age on the timeline.
9. 10 years from first blood moon 4/15/14 to 9/13/24 (Atonement/ 2nd coming) on the timeline.
10. 11/29/47 UN Partitions Palestine to 11/27/2024 on our timeline = 77 years exact.
11. 7 years EXACTLY TO THE DAY from when Jupiter exits the womb of Virgo, to the Second Coming of Christ on our Alpha to Omega Timeline.
12. From the Blood Moon on Feast of Trumpets Sept 13,2015 to Sept 13, 2024 (Second Coming date on our Alpha to Omega Timeline) 9 Years Exact.
13. Exactly 1335 days from Sept 21, 2017 to Pentecost 2021.
14. Balfour Declaration Nov 2 1917 to 10/20/17 (trib begins) on our timeline is 12 days short of 100 yrs exact.
15. 8/21 2017 solar eclipse to the beginning of the tribulation 9/ 20/17 on our timeline: 60 days.
16. Beginning of timeline September 21, 2017 to 2nd Day of Tabernacles 9/21/2024: 7 years exact.
17. Eclipse August 21, 2017 forward 33 days to the Rev 12 Sign.
18. 40 days from the Aug 21, 2017 eclipse to Atonement.
19. Beginning of year 5778 9/21 2017 to the exact time of the Rev 12 Sign alignment = 40 hours.
20. Jesus returns to establish His Kingdom ON THE VERY DAY of the anniversary of which the UN broke ground to establish THEIRS. September 14, 1948.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“So, if I am still here in October, 2017, it will be because I was not “found worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass.”

Or that you were simply wrong. Time will tell.

We just all be ready whenever He comes.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Interesting discussion of this belief:

http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/index.php?threads/how-rare-is-the-revelation-12-heavenly-sign-23-september-2017-once-in-7000-years.3276/

I think it’s just one more in a long line of false predictions and is built on claims that are not present in Scripture.

[GGpaX4DumpedTea]

Your analysis/explanation of the Benedict/Francis thing is excellent. I had been thinking of commenting similarly, but you have done it much better than I could have done. Thank you for your post.

Benedict is legitimate. Francis is not.

In some ways, I think the Church is fortunate that Francis was ‘elevated’ to this illegitimate position and not a respected Cardinal.

[Falconspeed]

“The first, and only, time I’ve taken Communion was at a Catholic Church in Sedona, Arizona. Was that wrong?”

With 100%, respect: yes. It is wrong to take Communion in a Catholic Church without formally enrolling in the Catholic Church. You have two options: easy and difficult. Easy: claim ignorance and get a pass. Difficult: claim responsibility and then talk to a priest, fast for two years, talk to the priest again, and hope for mercy on your account.

If a priest allows non-Catholics to take Communion, then he is guilty and no one wants to be in his shoes.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“With 100%, respect: yes. It is wrong to take Communion in a Catholic Church without formally enrolling in the Catholic Church. You have two options: easy and difficult. Easy: claim ignorance and get a pass. Difficult: claim responsibility and then talk to a priest, fast for two years, talk to the priest again, and hope for mercy on your account.”

Or don’t worry about it.

[vladimir998]

“I know what the Roman church teaches about a sacramental system is not in Scripture and cannot save.”

Again, the Bible says something much different from what you say: “This prefigured baptism, which saves you now.” 1 Peter 3:21

[vladimir998]

Matthew 24:36.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“Again, the Bible says something much different from what you say:

Sure, when you strip it from its context.

Best

[ealgeone]

If there’s anything the sola scriptura crowd hates, it’s scripture.

And the people say what?

btw...still waiting on you to confirm or deny if you're still a priest...or ever were.

[vladimir998]

“If this doesn’t happen, then these dates have all been one big coincidence.”

No coincidence at all. Just a huge misinterpretation and imagination of evidence that isn’t there.

You’ll see. If I’m wrong on this, I’m going to heaven anyway. If you’re wrong, that means almost everything you have ever understood you have understood incorrectly.

[vladimir998]

The context is right there: “This prefigured baptism, which saves you now.” 1 Peter 3:21