Posted on 07/05/2017 5:32:05 PM PDT by grumpa
The removal of the restrainer.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
“Notice these are believers doing the mocking here”
Interesting point. I would clarify that as being professed believers, but it does fit the passage. People within the church, who identify as “Christian” seem to be the source of the biggest opposition to the Gospel. Thanks for pointing that out.
Call upon His NAME !shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
First, I want to begin by stating that I do not consider those who recognize the pre-millennial rapture of believers and the bodily return of Christ to the earth to reign are false teachers just because we disagree over the timing of the rapture.
I consider the views advocated in the article of this post to be serious false doctrine. It is of the same nature which Paul had to administer church discipline in order to correct. But the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture is not of that nature. I was raised in a church that taught this. I have pretty much always been part of a church that held this view. And some even consider my position of a pre-wrath rapture to be false doctrine. Although most will admit that it is not something for Christians to break fellowship over. But it is not possible to have a ministry or leadership of a local church divided over this issue and then stake a firm position on it.
Your views and comments are welcomed, and I appreciate some of the insights you have already shared. I particularly appreciate the comments you’ve made about the wedding guests. That is something I would like to explore more in my studies. I am always open to correction based on what the Bible says rather than views that are manmade and are forced upon the text.
Like you, this has been a decades long quest for me. I knew many years ago that there were serious problems with Biblical support for the pre-trib view. I did not get these from opponents of it. I got them from studying the Bible for deeper understanding of a view I already accepted. But the more I studied, the more I saw problems. And the commentaries and teachers did not have adequate answers. But after a lot of study on the subject I could not find a satisfactory answer to my questions. So I tabled the subject for a while.
Later, a family member who also maintained a pre-trib view, gave me a copy of a book by Marv Rosenthal which espoused the pre-wrath view. While I did not find every single point in that book satisfactory, I found the overall argument answered 90% or more of the issues I had never been able to resolve. And the more I studied, the more convinced I became that the rapture is, in general, pre-wrath rather than pre-trib.
So, with all of this in mind, I will address your points one-by-one. In order to keep things organized I will put my replies into one post but a separate on from this one. Hopefully, that will keep the post from being too long.
More to follow...
4 I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000. Those who were sealed were from every tribe of Israel:
I learned long ago that a pwerfect chronological order to the Revelation is not there. There is however a change of perspective repeated, and with that a change in temporal perspective, from narrow time spans to broad over view time spans. I look forward to your post.
“The Tribulation IS the outpouring of GOD’s wrath.”
This is really the crux of the matter. We who believe on Christ are going to be spared from God’s wrath. If you look in the book of Revelation, there are times when God’s wrath is poured out on those who have taken the mark of the beast. Here is an example:
Revelation 16:2
So the first went and poured out his bowl upon the earth, and a foul and loathsome sore came upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.
And the 144,000 sealed are protected:
Revelation 9:4
They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
The the uncountable multitude in Heaven is safe because they are in Heaven, not on the earth.
In the context of the book of Revelation, where we disagree is chapter 6. It appears that we agree that this chapter describes events within Daniel’s seventieth week. However, you believe the rapture happens prior to the events of chapter 6, and I believe the rapture happens at the end of 6. This also raises the question: why did God choose not to explicitly say? Why is the rapture spoken of in Revelation but never described in detail? For that reason, I consider this to be an area where Christians may disagree. But I do think God will make this clearer as the Day of the Lord approaches. But allow me to make my case for chapter 6 not being part of the Day of the Lord.
First, I assert there are certain aspects of the Day of the Lord which can be ascertained by studying this topic (i.e. the phrase) throughout scripture. The Day of the Lord is also called the Day of Wrath, and the Day of Christ, and the Day of God. There are some additional minor variations. It is my contention that: these all refer to the same general time period, the return of Christ for His bride will occur simultaneously to the arrival of this time period, and this time period is NOT synonymous with the Great Tribulation, indeed it follows the Great Tribulation in the prophetic timeline. Now, for the evidence.
Paul makes the arrival of the Day of the Lord time period equivalent to the second coming.
1 Thessalonians 5:2
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
I am sure you are very familiar with the multiple passages which also describe Christ’s return being “as a thief.” So I will not cite all of them here. But Paul mentions this in context of when Christ will return, including his discourse in chapter 4 of the same epistle.
Paul again ties Christ’s return with the Day of the Lord in the next epistle:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-2
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
Apparently, the Thessalonians thought they had missed the rapture, or that the rapture was not going to happen at all. They thought they were in the Day of the Lord. Paul gives them some reasons why this could not be the case. He identifies two important events which must happen prior to the Day of the Lord: an apostasy, and the antichrist will be revealed.
If the entire seventieth week of Daniel is within the Day of the Lord, then antichrist would have to be revealed before or at the very beginning of this time period. However, the rapture will occur suddenly, unexpectedly, and in a moment of time. Pretrib doctrine would essentially require that the identification of antichrist happen before the ink is dry on the seven year treaty (or treaty renewal). But Paul treats his being revealed as happening at the abomination of desolation in the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week. Not only that, this abomination AND the revealing of antichrist are both described as being restrained by someone:
2 Thessalonians 2:6-9
And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders.
So the message on the order of events here is inescapable. The restrainer quits restraining, the antichrist is revealed (at the abomination of desolation the the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week), and the Day of the Lord arrives (and the rapture occurs). How can these events be arranged in any other order?
“The tribulation is specifically identified as the wrath of God being poured out upon the Earth. We, the Bride of Christ, are not appointed to wrath. The body of believers suffer many persecutions, but not The Wrath of God.”
Let’s look at Revelation 6. First seal: a false peace. Does that sound like God’s wrath? Second seal: war. Is this God’s wrath to which Christians are immune? Take a look at now and in history. Have Christians been impacted by the nightmares of war? Of course, yes. Have Christians had to drink waters that were turned to blood? No. The seal judgments are not God’s boiling over anger, i.e. wrath. They are the first warnings of the much more severe stuff that is coming. What about the other seal judgments? Famine, disease, persecution of believers, signs and wonders in the Heavens. Can Christians go through these types of events? Yes. They have. They do now. And they will then.
“From the beginning of Chaper 4 through to chapter 19, this is the view from Heaven of what will take place on the Earth. “
Take a careful look at this sequence of events in chapter 6. You mentioned that these are from the view of Heaven. That’s correct. Of course things on earth are described there in relation to the breaking of the seals of the scroll. But there is something strangely familiar with these events isn’t there?
They just so happen to match the events Jesus spoke about in the Olivet discourse. Now, keep in mind that the events in those passages were in answer to a couple of questions the disciples had. He was answering what signs they should look for prior to His coming and the “end”. (it is my position that the “end of the age” is another term to describe the Day of the Lord.) He gave them 6 signs plus a 7th sign, which was His return, which mark to arrival of that time period called “the end.” Look at the sequence:
False peace. War. Famine. Disease. Persecution (and the abomination of desolation), signs in the heavens, and THEN His return. Then the end comes, in which God’s wrath is poured out. A very important thing to note is that these signs represent a sequence of events unique in human history. This set of events, in this particular order, indicate the imminence of the return of the Lord, and then the end of the world (i.e. of this age, as the world will be destroyed with fire but not annihilated). So, the events in Revelation 6 MUST be the same events as those mentioned in the Olivet Discourse.
It is very important for you to decide your position in this regard. Are these the same events? If not, how do you reconcile the two passages? And it is important to consider that Christ is going to return immediately AFTER these days of Great Tribulation. Do you see the signs in the sky? What follows immediately after? But this does not account for all of the events in Revelation 7-19 that you attribute to Daniel’s seventieth week. Why did Jesus leave off the events of Revelation 7-19 from the Olivet Discourse?
Matthew 24:15, 21-22, 29-31
Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand)...
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened...
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
In Revelation 6, we have the same exact sequence of events. Then Jesus says the Great Tribulation ends and He will arrive. Where did all of the Revelation 7-19 wrath go? Also, the end of Revelation 6 is where we first see the word “wrath” in regard to God’s punishments. The signs in the heavens are the indicator that His wrath has arrived.
Let’s look at another very important marker. The Great Tribulation ends with signs in the heavens. I just cited the Matthew 24 account. This comes AFTER The Great Tribulation. That is VERY clear. These happen immediately prior to the Lord’s return. So where does Joel place these same events?
Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
Keep in mind that it is this very passage that Peter cites as being fulfilled at the start of the Church age when the Holy Spirit came. Paul also cites verse 32 in relation to the Gospel. It says “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” (See Romans 10.) This is for us. It is for the Church age. It is for the New Testament, Spirit-filled believer.
Now this presents some serious problems for the pre-trib view. First, we agree that the Thessalonians thought they were in the Day of the Lord and experiencing His wrath. But we know that God promised us to escape His wrath. So Paul said certain things had to happen first. Joel tells us another: signs in the heavens. Is this not clearly specified by Joel? This must happen first, right?
But nowhere in Revelation is there such an event prior to the seals being broken. Indeed, this even matches exactly what is described in the events connected to seal 6 being broken. If the false peace, war, famine, disease, and persecution of believers (seals 1-5) are part of the Day of the Lord, then where are the signs in the heavens that Joel foretold?
Further, if the events of Daniel’s seventieth week begin with a false peace, how can it be that Christ returns to give respite to His persecuted church and repay her enemies with fire from heaven? The fire from heaven is a bit late if Christ returns immediately prior to the Seal judgments. But, if we remain here and are preserved through the Great Tribulation, and Christ returns when it is over, after the signs in the heavens, then it makes sense. The fire judgements carried out by angels commence immediately after the seal judgements are completed.
2 Thessalonians 1:4-10
so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
When is this? Is this at the beginning of Daniel’s seventieth week? Then where is the fire from angels that this chapter alludes to? Or is this at the end of Daniel’s seventieth week? If so, then how is it at this time believers will be given rest? Wouldn’t they have already received their rest and relief long before this?
These questions are only satisfactorily answered by a pre-wrath rapture.
When we begin to see these things come to pass, then and ONLY THEN is the return of Christ for His bride imminent. It is then that we are told to look up because Christ’s coming is near.
In this world we WILL have tribulation. We SHALL suffer persecution. But we will not incur God’s wrath. For believers, the way to “escape all these things” is to endure. The way out is the way through. God will preserve us. But He will not leave us to face His wrath.
Luke 21:36
Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.
John 15:20
Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also.
John 16:33
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.
John 17:15
I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.
Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
“I learned long ago that a pwerfect chronological order to the Revelation is not there.”
I agree. There are many things which can be demonstrated to be out of chronological order.
However, the 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 bowls are in a specific sequence which is chronological.
The 7 seals specifically correspond to the “signs” the disciples wanted to know would announce His coming. They are also the signs of the “end,” though Christ’s return is itself one final sign of the end.
I have a pressing matter to attend to, but when I get back I will reply. Thank you.
It is much closer to “be pure”
I totally agree.... easier said than done!!!
I already died, experienced Heaven and came back here... not by my choice.... Quite honestly I look forward to Rapture to meet Him again.
The beginning of Chapter 4 is, in my studies, the Rapture of the Bride, The Body of Christ. Those who come up to the Throne Room thereafter are not The Bride. But they are in Heaven because they washed their graments in the Blood of The Lamb )Rev 7 and again in Rev 12)
Here is an example of what I meant by changing perspective and different timelines:
Rev 7:13“Who are these people wearing white robes,” one of the elders asked me, “and where did they come from?”
14I told him, “Sir, you know.”
Then he told me, “These are the people who are coming out of the terrible suffering. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb.
Then again in Rev 12:
Rev12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say,
“Now the salvation, the power, the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah have come.For the one who accuses our brothers, who accuses them day and night in the presence of our God, has been thrown out.
11 Our brothers conquered him by the blood of the lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they did not cling to their lives even in the face of death.
The perspective has changed to a separate group who believe in The Lamb of God. The timeline is also in a different orientation and the woman is Israel and the boy she gives birth to is The Messiah Who was taken away to Heaven so the dragon could not devour Him. Thus we know these are Jews now in focus, not Christians or the Bride of Christ.
I am sorry I do not have a quiet enough space now to respond more in detail, but I will confess I do not believe the Tribulation is not the wrath of God upon the Earth, for the white horse rider with a bow and no arrows is anti-Christ. He is revealed as a false Christ. And the Tribulation begins with a catastrophe then the anti-chrsit brings peace to a devastated world, allowing the Temple to be rebuilt even. But int he middle of the 7 years he defiles the Holy Place declaring himself to be god. The strong delusion is part of the way God's increasing wrath is revealed. This revelation of God dealing with the earth dwellers left behind is what triggers so many to heed the evangelism of the 144,000 JEWSIH evangelists, and thus be slaughtered and end up in Heaven for the Wedding Feast of the Bride and Bridegroom.
“the seals, trumpets and bowls do not belong on the same timeline”
That’s not quite what I meant. I meant that each group of seven are respectively in a sequential order. They are numbered one through seven because they take place in that order with respect to the others within each list of seven. For example, seal number 2 must take place after seal number 1.
“The perspective has changed to a separate group who believe in The Lamb of God.”
Chapter 12 has indeed been a pivotal chapter in the discussion of the timing of the rapture. The main proponent of the pre-trib view in modern times (as it never was a traditional systematic teaching in any historical documents) was J. N. Darby. He apparently thought the child symbol in this chapter is symbolic of the church which is caught up to God before the tribulation. Or at least that is my understanding of his position.
It appears that the heavenly sign which is described in this chapter is to take place in a couple of months. There is some debate as to whether or not this is THE fulfillment of that sign, but I find the arguments for it to be compelling. I am not confident in the meaning of the symbols, but I do lean toward the woman representing Israel.
“This revelation of God dealing with the earth dwellers left behind is what triggers so many to heed the evangelism of the 144,000 JEWSIH evangelists, and thus be slaughtered and end up in Heaven for the Wedding Feast of the Bride and Bridegroom.”
It is interesting that you think the multitude gets to Heaven by dying. While the passage does not specifically say how they got to Heaven, it certainly does not exclude the possibility of their being raptured saints. Somehow they got from earth during the Great Tribulation to Heaven. But I also want to point out the contrast between this group and the “souls” under the altar in chapter 6. In chapter 7 the multitude is not described as made up of souls. They have hands with palm branches in them. While I don’t want to read too much into these descriptions, there is nothing inconsistent with their being raptured saints who have been clothed upon with their new bodies. And keep in mind that those who were slain in chapter 6 had not yet been avenged. This vengeance seems to begin in chapter 8. And all of these things are entirely consistent with my description of 1 Thessalonians 1 where Christ gives the persecuted church respite at His return and judgments of fire as vengeance upon the persecutors.
It is reasonable to believe that Christians will continue to endure persecution and martyrdom right up until the moment of Christ’s return. So, if this persecution takes place within the Great Tribulation it would be consistent for there to be a gathering of saints, both martyred and raptured in Heaven who could be described as having come out of the Great Tribulation. And the judgments of fire that follow beginning in chapter 8 would match as well.
“I will confess I do not believe the Tribulation is not the wrath of God upon the Earth for the white horse rider with a bow and no arrows is anti-Christ. He is revealed as a false Christ. And the Tribulation begins with a catastrophe then the anti-chrsit brings peace to a devastated world...”
The idea that the antichrist rises to power because of the rapture seems odd without any mention of it here. John says there are many antichrists now and that the spirit of antichrist is already at work. And that was his description centuries ago. God’s wrath is pictured for us in the flood of Noah and the destruction of Sodom. With Noah, Enoch was taken out of this world just before the flood. And Noah and his family were preserved through it. In Sodom, Lot and his family were led out of the place before the fire rained down and destroyed the cities. But look at Revelation 6 and 7. In chapter 6 there is no group of people who are excluded from these events. There are no sealed who escape. There are those who are martyred for their Christian faith. But no group is excluded. Yet, beginning in chapter 7 there is a group that is sealed and protected from the events that follow. Doesn’t that illustrate a distinction between the events in chapter 6? If the events in chapter 6 are part of God’s wrath, how are there followers of Christ in that time who are martyred for their faith? Why are they experiencing God’s wrath through the devastation of war, famine, disease, and persecution? Unless, maybe these are not God’s wrath.
Regardless, it is very important that Christians recognize that a life without tribulation or persecution is NOT a normative condition for the Church. Down through history, Christians have always suffered these things. Jesus told us to expect them. Even if it is possible that the rapture will take the church out before the time I am expecting, the possibility of a time of great suffering and distress are a reality for us. In fact, for many Christians that reality is here today and has been going on for generations.
Regardless of our conclusions about the timing of Christ’s return, it is important to balance the commands to “watch and be ready” with those that tell us to “wait patiently” for Christ’s return. We need to be ready for His return right now. But we need to be able to endure if His return takes place much later than we anticipate.
Even Paul, who had met the risen Jesus and who became one of the most active apostles, lamented that he kept finding himself doing things he shouldn't and not doing things they should - falls right in with "Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven".
Amen and amen: “We need to be ready for His return right now. But we need to be able to endure if His return takes place much later than we anticipate.”
Why would any sincere Christian give this post a respectful reply? It mocks the words of Jesus Christ
Vile trash.
Why? ... Because there are many readers of these threads who do not have the studies background to discern the insult to The Truth of scriptures!
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