I watched both videos. Spent about an hour. Don’t have time to give the proper feedback it deserves. I’m always interested in hearing the best arguments against my views. I’ve even bought pretrib books on the advice of some Freepers. One makes the case against prewrath based on an apparent distinction between the Day of the Lord and the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord. But the reality of the evidence presented is that even if that distinction exists, it does not add any additional credibility to the pretrib view. The pretrib views relies on ambiguity concerning the Day of the Lord. In the pretrib paradigm, the Day of the Lord must always be adjusted in its definition and timing in relation to the rapture in order to accommodate the pretrib doctrine. It should not work like this. That’s not exegetical.
So far I have never heard any systematic approach to the topic that I find truly persuasive, in support of the pretrib view. Everything is anecdotal and proof texts. The problem is that even cults can force their false doctrines on a passage if they are willing to twist it to their own ends. We must be careful not to do this, but to “rightly divide” the scriptures.
A careful and openminded study of the topic of the Day of the Lord in scripture reveals that this time period is distinct from both the early part of Daniel’s seventieth week and the Great Tribulation. It is clear that Christ’s return happens exactly when the Day of the Lord arrives. Both come like a thief. They both come suddenly. They both come with judgment. It is helpful to realize that there is a difference between God’s loving discipline, His judgments, His anger, and His wrath. Wrath is a boiling over anger. God may be displeased and disappointed with things that believers do or say. He never has wrath toward us. The judgments of Daniel’s seventieth week become progressively intense, but they are contained. They are “tribulation” rather than the wrath of God.
I think the 13 mysteries topic is worth further study. I think the fact that the restrainer in 2 Thessalonians 2 is not part of a mystery being revealed underscores that this person’s identity was already known and is found in the Old Testament scriptures from which Paul instructed the Thessalonians (along with the revelations he received directly from the Lord).
The application of dispensationalism remains the primary source of contention for pretrib proponents. We must allow scriptures to inform us of what constitutes the relationship between Israel and the Church, rather than superimposing our own preconceived notions. I do not believe in replacement theology. I see a clear distinction between the nation of Israel and the Church. But Israel and the Church can and do exist simultaneously. And Jews who currently believe in Christ and are citizens of Israel are part of both.
The argument that we “wait” for Christ’s return for the Church, but tribulation saints will be “watching” for His second coming, is not plausible. The words would be reversed if they meant what Dr. Ice claims. Anamén means to “actively wait with rising intensity and clarity about what is hoped for” according to Strong’s:
http://biblehub.com/greek/362.htm
If Christ’s return for the Church could truly happen at any moment, then we should be constantly looking up for Him to arrive at any moment.
Instead, the angels asked the disciples why they continued to gaze up into the sky. Indeed, Jesus said when it is time to look up: when all of these signs begin to come to pass. In other words, the rapture becomes imminent when the signs happen.
Read carefully Matthew 24:29-44. This is the coming AFTER the Great Tribulation. Yet “no man knows the day or hour” when He is coming AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION. And He is coming like a thief AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION. These are attributes of the rapture of the Church that pretrib proponents ascribe to imminency.
Yet Dr. Ice contends that it will be possible to know the exact day of the second coming at the end of Daniel’s seventieth week. Which is it? This is a very important question. Is the Olivet discourse describing the rapture of the Church? If not, how is Christ’s coming described in that passage as being like a thief?
The claim is made that there is no judgment language associated with the rapture of the Church. That is incorrect. See James 5:9, 1 Peter 4:17, and 1 Thessalonians 1:8.
Again, in this last passage, is this describing the rapture of the Church? If so, how can it also say that tribulation will be repaid with fire from Heaven on the persecutors of believers at the time of this coming? But if this is not the rapture of the Church, how can believers be finally receiving their respite from persecution at this coming?
I believe that if we come to scripture with an attitude of meekness, set aside our preconceptions, and open our heart to the Holy Spirit on this matter, He will give us clarity and understanding of the things that are important for us to know. And I see a continued and repeated theme of expecting persecution and tribulation. In contrast we are encouraged by the promise to be spared from God’s wrath.
It is in this broader context of the Gospel and pattern of the Christian life that a prewrath rapture makes the most sense. Believe me, I would rather the rapture come sooner than later. But we are called to follow the example of Christ. We are called to enter the kingdom of God through much tribulation and persecution. Since the reformation and the formation of this nation, the west has experienced liberty in an unprecedented way compared with all of church history and the experience of other Christians throughout the world even today. These present hardships are going to be more widespread throughout the world prior to Christ’s return. And when He does rescue His Church from the antichrist, He will pour out His fiery wrath on these persecutors. And we will enter into rest.
I’ve enjoyed our conversation and hope that nothing I’ve said comes through as being contentious or condescending. That would undermine the message. We can both continue to study, pray, and seek the Lord. I am certain that we will come to a consensus by doing so as the final events of history become more near.