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The Refiner’s Fire: The Biblical Vision of Purgatory
Catholic Exchange ^ | November 28, 2016 | STEPHEN BEALE

Posted on 11/28/2016 3:03:26 PM PST by NYer

Contrary to what skeptics may say, Scripture directly describes purgatory for us.

Perhaps the most famous text is 1 Corinthians 3:10-15,

According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.

This is not an isolated passage. Instead, St. Paul is drawing upon a pre-existing motif of the refiners’ fire that occurs in several texts throughout the Old Testament. Most often cited is Malachi 3:2-3,

But who can endure the day of his coming?
Who can stand firm when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire,
like fullers’ lye.

He will sit refining and purifying silver,
and he will purify the Levites,
Refining them like gold or silver,
that they may bring offerings to the Lord in righteousness.

Then there is also Zechariah 13:8-9,

In all the land
two thirds of them will be cut off and perish,
and one third will be left.
I will bring the one third through the fire;
I will refine them as one refines silver,
and I will test them as one tests gold.

They will call upon my name, and I will answer them;
I will say, “They are my people,”
and they will say, “The Lord is my God.”

There are also references to the refiners’ fire in 1 Peter 1:7, Isaiah 48:10, Job 23:10, Proverbs 17:3, and Psalm 66:10—though from the context it is not always clear these verses are explicitly referring to purgatorial fire. Nonetheless, the image of a refiners’ fire is a recurrent one in Scripture and one that is utilized to describe what many of the faithful will experience after death.

Unlike the ‘everlasting’ fire, this fire is of a limited duration. Its purpose is also manifestly different—rather than simple punishment, it aims to ‘test’ those who endure and to ‘refine’ them.

1 Corinthians makes it clear that this ‘testing’ evaluates one’s works in life. Those of value—the good works of charity and mercy—are like the gold and silver that endure, while the bad works are like the chaff that is burned up. Likewise, just as a refining fire removes impurities from precious metals like silver and gold, so also the faithful departed will be purified of any remaining traces of sin.

Most of us get the basic concept of a refiners’ fire. But there was much more to the ancient process.

To take the example of silver, this metal usually appeared in lead ores. One account describes the process this way:

This was freed from the lead by heating in a furnace with a bed of bone ash, which absorbs some of the lead. A blast of air was used, and this causes the rest of the lead to oxidise, forming a cake known technically as litharge. The silver rises to the surface of the semi-liquid slag, or ‘dross’ as it is referred to in the Bible. This was removed, either with a blast of air or a scraper. After all impurities are removed silver will radiate a pure, brilliant light. (Source: Testimony Magazine.)

And then the silver was refined yet once more—this time by sticking it in a clay vessel.

It is also frequently said that the refiner knows when the process is complete when he sees his own image in the silver, a beautiful analogy of our lives. However attractive the idea, it is unfortunately quite incorrect technologically, as anyone will attest who has witnessed the process. The molten silver is brilliant, it is true, but it emits its own light, it cannot act as a mirror. (Testimony Magazine.)

In the ancient world—particularly in the ancient world as depicted in the Bible—silver had a variety of uses. It was, in the first place, currency. (Think of the ‘ten pieces of silver’ in Luke 15:8, for example.) Silver was also used in the construction of the tabernacle under Moses. (See Exodus 26.) Silver furthermore symbolized purity and incorruptibility. (Testimony Magazine.)

The symbolism here is rich with implications for the journey of the faithful departed through purgatory. Here are a few:

The purgatorial process: Just as the refinement of silver involves several steps, we can infer that purgatory will likewise be complicated. Perhaps this is why Catholics traditionally assumed purgatory would be of such a long duration. A vision of what that might be like is offered to us by J.R.R. Tolkien in his parable of purgatory, Leaf by Niggle. (Also described here.)

Light of our own: The identification of God with light is intimately familiar to us. As we become sons of God the metaphor is extended: we are also to become ‘children of the light.’ Perhaps in purgatory we will advance to a point at which our communion with God is so intense that we radiate light from within rather than simply reflect it.

Precious and incorruptible: Just as silver was a precious and incorruptible metal highly valued as currency, so also Christians are precious in the eyes of God. And so also Christians in the next life will become physically and morally incorruptible.

Communion with God: Just as silver was used on the construction of the tabernacle—where God was present to Israel—so also we will live up to our calling as temples of God in heaven. Purgatory is what finally enables us to do this.

Scripture does not provide us with all the answers we might want, but it tells us much more about purgatory than we might at first suspect. With the metaphor of the refiners’ fire, Scripture indicates that whatever we might experience in purgatory, at the end we will become something beautiful for God.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Moral Issues; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic
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To: Salvation

Before you believed in Jesus, what sins did GOD know you would commit in life? Now parallel the looking upon the brass snake with what Jesus did on the Cross ... when you believe He is your Savior (when you trust His Promise to be your Savior) what sins does GOD not know you will commit in the rest of your life? ... Yes, when He cleanses you with HIS blood, He cleans away ALL your sin nature ... as JESUS said, no one can snatch you from His two hands, so there is no sin you can commit that will ‘un save’ you once HE cleanses your sin nature before GOD ... God does not see your sin because He has covered them with HIS Perfect Holy Blood, All of them.


41 posted on 11/28/2016 8:24:18 PM PST by MHGinTN (A dispensational perspective is a powerful tool for spiritual discernment)
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To: Paul46360

Because they died in a state of grace (no mortal sin on their soul) and are on their way to Heaven. If they had not died in a state of grace, they would have been damned.

If you are interested in learning more, there are plenty of Catholic websites that can help you gain a better understanding of purgatory.


42 posted on 11/29/2016 2:32:31 AM PST by piusv (Pray for a return to the pre-Vatican II (Catholic) Faith)
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To: Paul46360

The whole thing sounds like God saying, “Your souls are saved and you will spend Eternity with Me, but first I’m gonna press lit cigars against the soles of your feet.”


43 posted on 11/29/2016 3:07:38 AM PST by trebb (Where in the the hell has my country gone?)
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To: trebb

The mythos of purgatory serves more than one purpose in a works based religion like catholiciism. If you look at the organizational ways one can help others out of this mythical place and do things like wear the Brown Scapulae and pray to the Catholic Mary and faithfully work the beads, well it become apparent that ‘striving for’ and earning is hallmark of this particular herding method in catholiciism. It is not what GOD teaches us in HIS WORD.


44 posted on 11/29/2016 6:09:25 AM PST by MHGinTN (A dispensational perspective is a powerful tool for spiritual discernment)
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To: MHGinTN

Agree


45 posted on 11/29/2016 6:19:35 AM PST by trebb (Where in the the hell has my country gone?)
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To: MHGinTN

Impressive work by you there.;-)

Good post.

Herding method indeed.


46 posted on 11/30/2016 3:32:33 PM PST by RoosterRedux
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To: Paved Paradise; Clutch Martin; NYer; redleghunter; Springfield Reformer; kinsman redeemer; ...
The suggested rendering would then read or could read as: Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.”

This comma baloney is used by cults. I don’t believe the comma should come after today. It makes no sense either. Since it is being said today, there is no need for Jesus to emphasize he is talking today.

Indeed, as if "today" was uttered so as to make a distinction btwn today and tomorrow, while that distinction is entirely fitting for once facing death, wanting to be with Jesus, and thus is comforted by the assurance that this was imminent.

And the most Scriptural revelation of Paradise is as the abode of the elect before the resurrection, being called Abraham's bosom in Lk. 16:22, to which Christ went at His death with the contrite criminal, which He called paradise, (Lk. 23:39-43) to release OT saints to glory, (Ephesians 4:9-10) and which Paul states is the 3rd Heaven. (2 Co. 12:3,4)

"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins." (Hebrews 10:4) Thus "the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing." (Hebrews 9:8)

But, "Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent." (Matthew 27:50-51) "Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things." (Ephesians 4:9-10) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1 Peter 3:19-20)

And therefore "the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.' (Matthew 27:52-53)

In addition, the Catholic explanation for there being no delay for the contrite criminal/AKA "good thief" being with Christ after death is that the criminal accomplished on the cross the sufferings that were required due to his sins and so "there remained no further need for any purgation" (http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage_print.asp?number=309713&language=en) “through fire and torments or purifying punishments” (Indulgentiarum Doctrina; cp. 1. 1967) and or that he otherwise died in a state of perfect holiness bound straight for heaven. (http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/dismissing-the-dismas-case)

However, in such a case the thief is said to have been justified "baptism by desire" (CCC 1259) and in Catholic theology the newly converted have no sins that may need further atonement (unless they sin venially and do not confess them and do sufficient penance), for which Purgatory is required.

Yet “Purgatory" (from Latin, "purgare", to make clean, to purify) is more than just for atoning for sins, but for attaining to perfection of character: "

In following the Gospel exhortation to be perfect like the heavenly Father (cf. Mt 5:48)...because the encounter with God requires absolute purity. Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected. Purification must be complete..." "This is exactly what takes place in Purgatory." — John Paul II, Audiences, 1999; http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_04081999.html

". ..we will go to Purgatory first, and then to Heaven after we are purged of all selfishness and bad habits and character faults" — Peter Kreeft, Because God Is Real: Sixteen Questions, One Answer, p. 224

.Purgatory is the state, after death, where souls who are not yet perfected in their love for God, are purified before admittance to the all holy God. (Fr. Frank Sofie, Purgatory)

"..the lapsable [imperfect believers] are destined to but have not yet attained this moral perfection of their natures....Purgation is thus the means by which the Christian’s inherent moral condition “catches up” to his unpenalizable status, purchased by Christ, before the tribunal of God." (Neal Judisch, Sanctification, Satisfaction, and the Purpose of Purgatory; www.baylor.edu/content/services/...php/79699.docx)

But besides the erroneous nature of this doctrine which was a later development,* the inherent moral condition with its attachment for sin is not purged at baptism (nor does that act itself effect regeneration), nor can mere suffering produce perfection of character and of the soul, for this requires testings and trials in which there is an alternative to obedience, which only this life is shown to provide, and which is the only realm Scripture speaks wherein believers grow in spiritual maturity..** The only manifest expectation of any real transformative change is that of the resurrection at the return of the Lord Jesus. (1Cor. 15:35ff; Phil. 1:21-23; 1Jn. 3:2)

And at which point Scripture teaches that all true believers shall" ever be with the Lord," (1Thes. 4:17) or at death, whatever comes first. (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”])

And at which time is the judgment seat of Christ, (1Cor. 4:5; 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18; Mt. 25:31-46; 1Pt. 1:7; 5:4)

Therefore, the position that the contrite criminal attained that perfection in a few hours or so on the cross is simply untenable, as is that the newly converted have attained this condition of maturity as well.

* Which was not what was preached by the NT church, but developed later. (Augustine "describes two conditions of men; "some there are who have departed this life, not so bad as to be deemed unworthy of mercy, nor so good as to be entitled to immediate happiness." - City of God XXI.24)

** Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season , if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: (1 Peter 1:6,7)


47 posted on 12/04/2016 3:02:45 PM PST by daniel1212 ( Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned and destitute sinner+ trust Him to save you, then follow Him!)
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To: NYer
1 Corinthians makes it clear that this ‘testing’ evaluates one’s works in life. Those of value—the good works of charity and mercy—are like the gold and silver that endure, while the bad works are like the chaff that is burned up. Likewise, just as a refining fire removes impurities from precious metals like silver and gold, so also the faithful departed will be purified of any remaining traces of sin.

And just where does he get this from 1Co. 3> And "the when?"

Using the valid principle of the refining value of fire does not justify a doctrine that invokes it, any more than the valid principle of the punitive use of fire justifies Islamic Hell.

48 posted on 12/04/2016 3:09:27 PM PST by daniel1212 ( Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned and destitute sinner+ trust Him to save you, then follow Him!)
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To: Paved Paradise; Clutch Martin; NYer
The below was supposed to follow as footnotes (bad html) to 47

* Which was not what was preached by the NT church, but developed later. (Augustine "describes two conditions of men; "some there are who have departed this life, not so bad as to be deemed unworthy of mercy, nor so good as to be entitled to immediate happiness." - City of God XXI.24)

Which is due to a misapprehension of Biblical justification, in which one can never be as perfect as Christ in character and thus actually fit to be with God (if one was as pure and perfect as Christ then one could be the atonement for mankind).

But instead the heart is purified by faith (Acts 15:9) and justified by the same, (Rn. 4:1-7ff) and thus the as yet practically, actually imperfect believer is "accepted in the Beloved" and made to sit together with Him in Heaven (Eph. 1:6; 2:6) on Christ's account, who Himself bore our sins for our sake, and was numbered with the transgressors, (Is. 53:4) and paid the price for our forgiveness, though He was actually wholly righteous. (1Pt. 2:22-24)

** Growth in Christian character (and chastisement to that end) is only manifestly shown as taking place while the believer is in this earthly realm, and what follows is judgment upon the character of his work in building the church. Thus we have such exhortations as, Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season , if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: (1 Peter 1:6,7)

Even Christ was perfect in character, yet it was here that He was made "perfect through sufferings," (Hebrews 2:10) as in having successfully been "in all points [lust of the eyes, and of the flesh, and ego: 1Jon. 2:16) tempted like as we are, yet without sin." (Hebrews 4:15)

49 posted on 12/04/2016 3:15:45 PM PST by daniel1212 ( Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned and destitute sinner+ trust Him to save you, then follow Him!)
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To: MHGinTN
The notion of Catholic Purgatorty empowers the org. Just look at the means that religion has defined as ways to obviate the purgatory and you see the fiction/mythos is designed to empower their org not the individual, and certainly not glorifying The Lord Christ.

When I was a Catholic, I was told that if I went to mass on 9 first Fridays, and 5 first Saturdays, I could get a soul out of purgatory, and into Heaven. It gave me a feeling of power. I realize now, it is just false doctrine. 😆

50 posted on 12/04/2016 3:43:39 PM PST by Mark17 (20 Years USAF ATCer, Retired. 25 years CDCR CO, Retired)
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To: daniel1212

Thanks... I really do appreciate food for thought.


51 posted on 12/04/2016 3:55:54 PM PST by Clutch Martin
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To: Salvation; Pete from Shawnee Mission; daniel1212
Only pure souls can enter heaven.

You are correct but we are made pure through Christ alone. When God looks at us, He looks at the works of Christ, not our works. We don't base our salvation on the works that one can do for God-either in this life or in "purgatory". We base our salvation on the works that Christ has done for us. Good works are only what God has given us to walk in:


52 posted on 12/05/2016 2:54:44 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: NYer
 
 
I wonder how much responsibility for Global Warming is Rome's fault?

53 posted on 12/05/2016 3:44:05 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Paul46360
If these people would ONLY follow what MARY told them to do...


Besides the Indulgences attached to the Rosary, Our Lady revealed to St. Dominic and Blessed Alan de la Roche additional benefits for those who devoutly pray the Rosary. Our Lady's promise is shown in darker blue text. Additional explanation on and doctrinal connections to each promise is shown following in the smaller normal text font and color. Note that the Rosary is the prayer (non-Liturgical) with the most published Magisterial / Papal documents expounding on its excellence. Vatican II's summary on Our Lady is contained in Lumen Gentium chapter VIII.

1. Whosoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the Rosary shall receive signal graces.

Signal Graces are those special and unique Graces to help sanctify us in our state in life. See the remaining promises for an explanation for which these will consist. St. Louis de Montfort states emphatically that the best and fastest way to union with Our Lord is via Our Lady [True Devotion to Mary, chapter four].

2. I promise my special protection and the greatest graces to all those who shall recite the Rosary.

Our Lady is our Advocate and the channel of all God's Grace to us. Our Lady is simply highlighting that She will watch especially over us who pray the Rosary. (see Lumen Gentium chapter VIII - Our Lady #62) [a great more detail is available on this topic in True Devotion to Mary, chapter four, by St. Louis de Montfort]

3. The Rosary shall be a powerful armor against hell, it will destroy vice, decrease sin and defeat heresies.

This promise, along with the next, is simply the reminder on how fervent prayer will help us all grow in holiness by avoiding sin, especially a prayer with the excellence of the Rosary. An increase in holiness necessarily requires a reduction in sin, vice, and doctrinal errors (heresies). If only the Modernists could be convinced to pray the Rosary! (see Lumen Gentium chapter V - The Call to Holiness #42) St. Louis de Montfort states "Since Mary alone crushed all heresies, as we are told by the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit (Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary)..." [True Devotion to Mary #167]

4. It will cause good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of men from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire for Eternal Things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means.

This promise, along with the previous, is the positive part, that being to live in virtue. Becoming holy is not only avoiding sin, but also growing in virtue. (see Lumen Gentium chapter V - The Call to Holiness #42)

5. The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the Rosary shall not perish.

Since Our Lady is our Mother and Advocate, She always assists those who call on Her implicitly by praying the Rosary. The Church reminds us of this in the Memorare prayer, "... never was it known that anyone who fled to your protection, implored your help or sought your intercession, was left unaided ..."

6. Whosoever shall recite the Rosary devoutly, applying himself to the consideration of its Sacred Mysteries shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise him in His justice, he shall not perish by an unprovided death; if he be just he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of Eternal Life.

This promise highlights the magnitude of Graces that the Rosary brings to whomever prays it. One will draw down God's Mercy rather than His Justice and will have a final chance to repent (see promise #7). One will not be conquered by misfortune means that Our Lady will obtain for the person sufficient Graces to handle said misfortune (i.e. carry the Crosses allowed by God) without falling into despair. As Sacred Scripture tells us, "For my yoke is sweet and my burden light." (Matthew 11:30)

7. Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church.

This promise highlights the benefits of obtaining the most possible Graces at the hour of death via the Sacraments of Confession, Eucharist, and Extreme Unction (Anointing of the Sick). Being properly disposed while receiving these Sacraments near death ensures one's salvation (although perhaps with a detour through Purgatory) since a final repentance is possible.

8. Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the Light of God and the plenitude of His Graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the Merits of the Saints in Paradise.

Our Lady highlights the great quantity of Graces obtain through praying the Rosary, which assist us during life and at the moment of death. The merits of the Saints are the gift of God's rewards to those persons who responded to His Grace that they obtained during life, and so Our Lady indicates that She will provide a share of that to us at death. With this promise and #7 above, Our Lady is providing the means for the person to have a very holy death.

9. I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the Rosary.

Should one require Purgatorial cleansing after death, Our Lady will make a special effort to obtain our release from Purgatory through Her intercession as Advocate.

10. The faithful children of the Rosary shall merit a high degree of Glory in Heaven.

This promise is a logical consequence of promises #3 and #4 since anyone who truly lives a holier life on earth will obtain a higher place in Heaven. The closer one is to God while living on earth, the close that person is to Him also in Heaven. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states "Spiritual progress tends toward ever more union with Christ." (Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 2014)

11. You shall obtain all you ask of me by recitation of the Rosary.

This promise emphasizes Our Lady's role as our Advocate and Mediatrix of all Graces. Of course, all requests are subject to God's Most Perfect Will. God will always grant our request if it is beneficial for our soul, and Our Lady will only intercede for us when our request is good for our salvation. (see Lumen Gentium chapter VIII - Our Lady #62)

12. All those who propagate the Holy Rosary shall be aided by me in their necessities.

If one promotes the praying of the Rosary, Our Lady emphasizes Her Maternal care for us by obtaining many Graces (i.e. spiritual necessities) and also material necessities (neither excess nor luxury), all subject to the Will of God of course.

13. I have obtained from my Divine Son that all the advocates of the Rosary shall have for intercessors the entire Celestial Court during their life and at the hour of death.

Since Our Lady is our Advocate, She brings us additional assistance during our life and at our death from all the saints in Heaven (the Communion of Saints). See paragraphs 954 through 959 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

14. All who recite the Rosary are my Sons, and brothers of my Only Son Jesus Christ.

Since the Rosary is a most excellent prayer focused on Jesus and His Life and activities in salvation history, it brings us closer to Our Lord and Our Lady. Doctrinally, Our Lady is our Mother and Jesus is our Eldest Brother, besides being our God. (see Lumen Gentium chapter VIII - Our Lady #62)

15. Devotion to my Rosary is a great sign of predestination.

Predestination in this context means that, by the sign which is present to a person from the action of devoutly praying the Rosary, God has pre-ordained your salvation. Absolute certainty of salvation can only be truly known if God reveals it to a person because, although we are given sufficient Grace during life, our salvation depends upon our response to said Grace. (See Summa Theologica, Question 23 for a detailed theological explanation). Said another way, if God has guaranteed a person's salvation but has not revealed it to Him, God would want that person to pray the Rosary because of all the benefits and Graces obtained. Therefore the person gets a hint by devotion to the Rosary. This is not to say that praying the Rosary guarantees salvation - by no means. In looking at promises #3 and #4 above, praying the Rosary helps one to live a holy life, which is itself a great sign that a soul is on the road to salvation. (See also paragraphs 381, 488, 600, 2782 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.) In fact, St. Louis de Montfort says even more strongly that "an infallible and unmistakable sign by which we can distinguish a heretic, a man of false doctrine, an enemy of God, from one of God's true friends is that the hardened sinner and heretic show nothing but contempt and indifference to Our Lady..." [True Devotion to Mary, #30]

Reminder: these promises mean that, by faithfully and devoutly praying the Rosary,

Our Lady will obtain for us the necessary Graces to obtain said promises.

It is still up to each individual soul to respond to those Graces in order to obtain salvation.


http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/prayer/15promise.htm
54 posted on 12/05/2016 3:48:17 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
9. I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the Rosary.

Should one require Purgatorial cleansing after death, Our Lady will make a special effort to obtain our release from Purgatory through Her intercession as Advocate.

55 posted on 12/05/2016 3:51:23 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Mark17; teppe; StormPrepper; Normandy
When I was a Catholic, I was told that if I went to mass on 9 first Fridays, and 5 first Saturdays, I could get a soul out of purgatory, and into Heaven. It gave me a feeling of power. I realize now, it is just false doctrine.

Try being a valid TR holding Mormon and get proxy baptized for a lot of folks.

I'll bet that makes the wet ones feel special; too!

56 posted on 12/05/2016 3:54:53 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Adherence to this continues to show the lack of faith the catholic has in the sufficiency of Christ to forgive us of all sin.


57 posted on 12/05/2016 4:52:33 AM PST by ealgeone
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To: Mark17
When I was a Catholic, I was told that if I went to mass on 9 first Fridays, and 5 first Saturdays, I could get a soul out of purgatory, and into Heaven. It gave me a feeling of power. I realize now, it is just false doctrine. 😆

Dude...you can't be serious?! This really illustrates that catholicism is a works based belief system.

58 posted on 12/05/2016 4:54:14 AM PST by ealgeone
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To: HarleyD

Your point is what so many miss, not just Catholics. Many never understand those in Christ are perfectly righteous because His righteousness has been credited to us. We aren’t actually righteous, but we are legally righteous because we’ve been made righteous by imputation.

“For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” 2 Corinthians 5:21

“And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,” 1 Corinthians 1:30

We don’t have any righteousness of our own. Indeed, our righteousness is as filthy rags in the sight of God (Isaiah 64:6). Instead we have the righteousness of God that comes through faith in Christ Jesus.

“Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ
and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—” Phillipians 3:8-9

It’s rather common to hear the scoffers refer to Christians, those who have been truly regenerated by the Spirit of God, as self-righteous. Ironically enough we are the only people who are truly not self-righteous. Everyone who isn’t in Christ will stand before God at judgment on the basis of their works, their filthy rags of righteousness, and they will be judged accordingly. In contrast, those found in Him, though just as guilty and filthy, will be judged on the basis of Christ’s works and His righteousness.

The whole world was changed because one day an Augustinian monk finally understood what the Scriptures mean when they declare that “the just shall live by faith.”


59 posted on 12/05/2016 6:31:58 AM PST by .45 Long Colt
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To: .45 Long Colt
You are exactly on point. I'm reminded of what Peter stated:

We must not forget that we are cleansed from our former sins because of Christ. We should only seek not to be ineffective for Him.
60 posted on 12/05/2016 6:39:14 AM PST by HarleyD
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