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To: Paved Paradise; Clutch Martin; NYer; redleghunter; Springfield Reformer; kinsman redeemer; ...
The suggested rendering would then read or could read as: Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.”

This comma baloney is used by cults. I don’t believe the comma should come after today. It makes no sense either. Since it is being said today, there is no need for Jesus to emphasize he is talking today.

Indeed, as if "today" was uttered so as to make a distinction btwn today and tomorrow, while that distinction is entirely fitting for once facing death, wanting to be with Jesus, and thus is comforted by the assurance that this was imminent.

And the most Scriptural revelation of Paradise is as the abode of the elect before the resurrection, being called Abraham's bosom in Lk. 16:22, to which Christ went at His death with the contrite criminal, which He called paradise, (Lk. 23:39-43) to release OT saints to glory, (Ephesians 4:9-10) and which Paul states is the 3rd Heaven. (2 Co. 12:3,4)

"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins." (Hebrews 10:4) Thus "the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing." (Hebrews 9:8)

But, "Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent." (Matthew 27:50-51) "Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things." (Ephesians 4:9-10) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1 Peter 3:19-20)

And therefore "the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.' (Matthew 27:52-53)

In addition, the Catholic explanation for there being no delay for the contrite criminal/AKA "good thief" being with Christ after death is that the criminal accomplished on the cross the sufferings that were required due to his sins and so "there remained no further need for any purgation" (http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage_print.asp?number=309713&language=en) “through fire and torments or purifying punishments” (Indulgentiarum Doctrina; cp. 1. 1967) and or that he otherwise died in a state of perfect holiness bound straight for heaven. (http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/dismissing-the-dismas-case)

However, in such a case the thief is said to have been justified "baptism by desire" (CCC 1259) and in Catholic theology the newly converted have no sins that may need further atonement (unless they sin venially and do not confess them and do sufficient penance), for which Purgatory is required.

Yet “Purgatory" (from Latin, "purgare", to make clean, to purify) is more than just for atoning for sins, but for attaining to perfection of character: "

In following the Gospel exhortation to be perfect like the heavenly Father (cf. Mt 5:48)...because the encounter with God requires absolute purity. Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected. Purification must be complete..." "This is exactly what takes place in Purgatory." — John Paul II, Audiences, 1999; http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_04081999.html

". ..we will go to Purgatory first, and then to Heaven after we are purged of all selfishness and bad habits and character faults" — Peter Kreeft, Because God Is Real: Sixteen Questions, One Answer, p. 224

.Purgatory is the state, after death, where souls who are not yet perfected in their love for God, are purified before admittance to the all holy God. (Fr. Frank Sofie, Purgatory)

"..the lapsable [imperfect believers] are destined to but have not yet attained this moral perfection of their natures....Purgation is thus the means by which the Christian’s inherent moral condition “catches up” to his unpenalizable status, purchased by Christ, before the tribunal of God." (Neal Judisch, Sanctification, Satisfaction, and the Purpose of Purgatory; www.baylor.edu/content/services/...php/79699.docx)

But besides the erroneous nature of this doctrine which was a later development,* the inherent moral condition with its attachment for sin is not purged at baptism (nor does that act itself effect regeneration), nor can mere suffering produce perfection of character and of the soul, for this requires testings and trials in which there is an alternative to obedience, which only this life is shown to provide, and which is the only realm Scripture speaks wherein believers grow in spiritual maturity..** The only manifest expectation of any real transformative change is that of the resurrection at the return of the Lord Jesus. (1Cor. 15:35ff; Phil. 1:21-23; 1Jn. 3:2)

And at which point Scripture teaches that all true believers shall" ever be with the Lord," (1Thes. 4:17) or at death, whatever comes first. (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”])

And at which time is the judgment seat of Christ, (1Cor. 4:5; 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18; Mt. 25:31-46; 1Pt. 1:7; 5:4)

Therefore, the position that the contrite criminal attained that perfection in a few hours or so on the cross is simply untenable, as is that the newly converted have attained this condition of maturity as well.

* Which was not what was preached by the NT church, but developed later. (Augustine "describes two conditions of men; "some there are who have departed this life, not so bad as to be deemed unworthy of mercy, nor so good as to be entitled to immediate happiness." - City of God XXI.24)

** Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season , if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: (1 Peter 1:6,7)


47 posted on 12/04/2016 3:02:45 PM PST by daniel1212 ( Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned and destitute sinner+ trust Him to save you, then follow Him!)
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To: daniel1212

Thanks... I really do appreciate food for thought.


51 posted on 12/04/2016 3:55:54 PM PST by Clutch Martin
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