Posted on 08/20/2016 7:45:03 AM PDT by Salvation
So you don’t even thank ADSUM for correcting your erroneous claim that “[the Catholic Church teaches] Whosoever dies clothed in this Scapular shall not suffer eternal fire”?
You just switch to another criticism without even acknowledging when your opponent has defeated you? Talk about “typical”.
And your new attempt at defeating Catholicism (criticizing the Carmelite tradition [note the lowercase “t”] about Mt. Carmel and Elijah and Mary) is also answered at the (Catholic.com) link ADSUM provided. (The article by Michelle Arnold). If you bothered to read it in it’s entirety. Which you obviously didn’t.
“This origin story sparked a great deal of vigorous debate among historians for centuries, until eventually the weight of historical evidence indicated that there was no direct link between the prophet Elijah and the Carmelites (although Elijah is still considered a spiritual father to the order).”. http://www.catholic.com/blog/michelle-arnold/the-sign-of-the-scapular (Link at that link for more history on the debate if desired)
“Typical” AGAIN. Intellectual laziness and/or willful obstinacy.
Direct questions to you ealgeone: will you now persist in making the erroneous claim that the “Catholic Church teaches those who wear the brown Scapular are guaranteed to not burn in Hell?” And/or are you going to persist in this new line of attack that since
“Elias, being a prophet, decided to commemorate this event and he founded a community of hermits on Mount Carmel to prepare for the coming of the Savior and His Mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary”
Isn’t in Scripture, then the Catholic Church must be wrong somehow (even though it’s not a Tradition of the Church, and no scholar today believes that “tradition” (again note the lowercase “t”) to be on par with God’s Word)?
Are you going to persist in these follies? Something tells me you will, just as something tells me in a desperate attempt to get the “precious last word” you will respond something to me now, some kind of deflection or other attempt at confusion, rather than either admitting your defeat or just shutting up.
And all you enemies of the Church wonder why sometimes some Catholics loose their composure with you all from time to time. The willful obstinacy and pride is too much sometimes (for me many times which is why I rarely post to these threads anymore, but this example provided by ADSUM’s work had to be acknowledged and demonstrated. Maybe at least one lurker will realize who’s not being reasonable on these threads).
The text allows for a range of punishment for a servant of the LORD at the coming of the LORD, according to one's works and understanding of his Lord's will. Who introduced proof text into the discussion. Support I will allow.
It wasn’t me.
You know, upon further review and reflection, you’re absolutely correct.
By any chance are you available to take charge of the Church in case the Pope becomes incapacitated???
Just a thought.
thin skinned “anti-Catholics ???
Do you know what happened on August 24, 1572 ???
In La Rochelle, France and some other places, thousands men, women, and children including babes in arms were slaughtered by CATHOLICS just because they chose to believe what God says in His Bible and not fairy tales of the Catholic Church...
The victims were Protestants, Huguenots, and the St Bartholomew’s Day Massacre is prominently listed in every document and book on the Huguenots...
there was no “Catholic bashing” that day by “thin skinned anti-Catholics”...
the Catholics were showing how thin skinned and anti-Bible they could be...
The Catholics were the ones who were bashing, and worse...
as the Huguenots fled into the “Low Countries” of Belgium and The Netherlands and to Ireland and England, they were arrested by the soldiers of the Catholic king and searched and killed for carrying a Bible...the Huguenot women started baking them into their big French loaves to hide their precious copies of the Word of God in French...
Yes in French so that the common people could read the Words of God for themselves and not rely on what the pope of their local parish priest had to say about their idea of God...
What a concept...reading about God and what He is saying to us...and going to God for themselves with the LORD Jesus Christ as their Mediator and Advocate... and not a mere sinful ignorant man...
Several of my own Huguenot ancestors fled to London, Bristol, Leyden, and made their way to the New World, some helped by the purse of the English king...
When my ancestors built the new town of New Rochelle in New York state, it wasn’t just another town, the name meant something to them...a reminder of that other Rochelle city they had loved and now they lived in another where they could freely worship God without fear of death...
The Catholics kept on killing and persecuting Protestants in France until the Edict of Nantes in 1598 which gave religious and civil liberty to the Huguenot...well at least until 1685 when the Edict was revoked by the Sun King...Louis XIV
Indeed it’s a long way from Gregory to Francis
The wrong way
unitary placemarker
More avoidance, and no, for unlike popes, no one by God possesses ensured infallibility as per the presumption of Rome.
The fullness of the truth is only found in the Bible.
The flotsam and jetsam (debris) of the many false teachings clutter up the fullness of the truth so it is hard to find in Catholicism.
It is found easily in pure Christianity in the many gatherings of millions of born again saved Christians which is what makes up the true body of Christ.
Being a member of the body of Christ is a simple decision and commitment. It is a free gift that costs you everything.
Every member is a citizen of the Kingdom of God, no longer bound to this world.
Who introduced proof text into the discussion. Support I will allow.
It means both are disallowed.
So that makes it ok personally attack individual Catholics here on FR by calling them vampires?
Perhaps you should ask Jim and the mods to purge FR of all Catholics.
Am I getting that hypocrisy thing now metmom?
We've been told too many times by catholics that Scripture and Tradition hold equal value in the rcc.
It's why when Christianity examines these topics and compares them to the Bible they are found wanting and in many cases false.
In the catholic.com website you provided you see the attempt at catholics trying to move away from this "belief" as fast as they can. Yet...many will continue to believe and promote it.
So I ask you....will you disavow the apparitions and the false messages they contain? If not, you're just a culpable as the ones who promote this stuff.
Now to address the rest of your post.
No...there's nothing to thank. The whole concept of wearing a piece of cloth to keep you out of the eternal fire is nonsense.
From the brochure...http://www.fatima.org/apostolate/pdf/brown_scapular.pdf
“ Whosoever dies clothed in this Scapular shall not suffer eternal fire.” the promise of the apparition.
Such is the extraordinary promise Our Lady makes to those who wear Her Brown Scapular. And this wonderful promise makes the Scapular the most powerful sacramental Heaven’s mercy has given us.
The Scapular also represents Our Lady’s protection and Her care for us. She promised to Saint Simon Stock: “It shall be a sign of salvation, a protection in danger, and a pledge of peace. Whosoever dies wearing this Scapular shall not suffer eternal fire.”
Note the emphasis on "mary's" protection...not Christ's forgiveness.
Somehow this piece of cloth is more powerful than the blood of Christ????
And your new attempt at defeating Catholicism (criticizing the Carmelite tradition [note the lowercase “t”] about Mt. Carmel and Elijah and Mary) is also answered at the (Catholic.com) link ADSUM provided. (The article by Michelle Arnold). If you bothered to read it in it’s entirety. Which you obviously didn’t.
Your issue is with the people who promote and believe this. I found no correction in the information on this catholic website regarding the scapular. In fact, we have,(from the brochure on the scapular)
Seven hundred years ago She gave Her Scapular to Saint Simon Stock, promising that anyone who wore it at death would Just a few years later, She came again with a more startling promise: “I, the Mother of Grace, shall descend into purgatory on the Saturday after their death and lead to Heaven all those who shall have worn My Scapular and fulfilled My two conditions.” Those aren’t Her exact words, but that’s the substance of them. That’s your ticket: the Scapular of the Blessed Virgin Mary! An old man I knew was very devoted to Mary all his life. High on his list of loving services to Mary was his Scapular practice. For years he asked Her to let him die on a Saturday, Her own special day. One day, he was sitting alone in his third floor flat, bathing tired feet and praying his Rosary. Fifteen minutes later he was dead, Rosary clutched in his hand. The clock was striking eight, Saturday evening! Now about getting that ticket for yourself ... Including the Scapular, there are three conditions: 1) To be enrolled in the Scapular Confraternity once, and to wear the Scapular at all times;
2) To be pure, observing the 6th and 9th Commandments; (I guess the other eight don't count??)
3) To pray each day the Little Office in honor of the Blessed Virgin Mary. (An authorized priest may change that to five decades of the Rosary daily.**)
Further clarification of the requirements are provided in the brochure:
The first condition, to wear the Scapular at all times, is easy. The brown cloth Scapular is what Mary really likes best (see page 21). As for being enrolled in the Scapular, that may have been done at your First Holy Communion. If it wasn’t, almost any priest will do it for you.
The second condition you have to observe already. In case of any sin by impurity, being sorry for it and confessing it (and receiving absolution for it) makes you eligible again for the Blessed Virgin Mary’s Scapular promise.
Thirdly, some authorized priest should assign you a daily duty in honor of Mary. ** (i.e. recitation of the Holy Rosary) http://www.fatima.org/apostolate/pdf/brown_scapular.pdf
I can see why catholic.com wants to clear this up.
To be clear....this is IDOLATRY.
It denies the sufficiency of the one-time sacrifice of the Christ on the Cross when He died for all of our sins and forgives all of our sins as noted in Colossians 1:13-14
Now to address the info at catholic.com.
From the link you provided to catholic.com
I hate to disillusion my reader, but while Carmelites of old cannot be said to have "fibbed," modern Carmelites have been saying "Oops!" for quite some time now about some of the more extravagant claims made by Carmelites down through the centuries about the origins of the Carmelite order and the scapular entrusted to the Carmelites. Being a secular Carmelite myself, I have been one of the modern Carmelites who have said "Oops!" and tried to set the record straight.
So catholicism has to "clean up" what any Christian would know to be a false teaching??
“This origin story sparked a great deal of vigorous debate among historians for centuries, until eventually the weight of historical evidence indicated that there was no direct link between the prophet Elijah and the Carmelites (although Elijah is still considered a spiritual father to the order).”. http://www.catholic.com/blog/michelle-arnold/the-sign-of-the-scapular (Link at that link for more history on the debate if desired)
This next part is beyond amazing....in other words, they made it up! btw...I included the whole paragraph you cited only partially for context.
To fill that void, stories began to circulate that the Carmelites could trace their origins back in a direct chain to the prophet Elijah, who had long been associated with Mount Carmel and was believed to have lived as a hermit there (cf. 1 Kings 18); to all the prophets who followed him; and to Christ and his followers, some of whom it was asserted to continue to live as hermits on Mount Carmel down through the ages. This origin story sparked a great deal of vigorous debate among historians for centuries, until eventually the weight of historical evidence indicated that there was no direct link between the prophet Elijah and the Carmelites (although Elijah is still considered a spiritual father to the order).
And, if it wasn't enough to link themselves directly to Elijah, the Carmelites also began asserting a supernatural origin for their scapular—not the little piece worn by many Catholics today, but the large, full-length scapular that constituted a significant part of the Carmelite habit. When the order was establishing itself in Europe, the garb then worn by the hermits was appropriate to a Palestinian mountaintop but strange in Europe and looked upon with suspicion. Effort was made to alter the habit to something more suited to the society in which the Carmelites now had to live. Instituting the change was slow-going—that is, until the claim was made that the Virgin herself had handed a scapular to St. Simon (who, not coincidentally at all, was an early prior general of the Carmelites in Europe) and promised that "whosoever dies clothed in this scapular shall not suffer eternal fire."
Her attempt at spinning this away is sad.
Were the Carmelites of old "fibbing" about the brown scapular?
No, they firmly believed the origin story handed down to them. It's taken centuries of historical research to sort out fact from pious fiction, and for centuries the pious fiction was passed on as God's truth (literally).
Pious fiction??? Is that next to science fiction in the bookstores??
What has been done by the Church to clear up misconceptions about the brown scapular?
Not long after Vatican II, the feast day of St. Simon Stock was removed from the liturgical calendar of the Carmelite order. It was eventually decided that this step was not necessary, and so the feast day was restored—
with the condition that the liturgy for his feast day could not contain mention of the vision of Our Lady of Mount Carmel and the scapular that had been attributed to him.
Just don't mention the vision or the scapular is how the rcc attempts to spin this false teaching away????
Man, the Clinton's would be proud.
Which again, happens at the Lord's return, (1Cor. 4:5; 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18; Mt. 25:31-46; 1Pt. 1:7; 5:4) and thus is simply not purgatory.
When did I call anyone a vampire ???
Today is August 24th...
I merely was commenting on the St Bartholomew’s Day massacre which happened August 24, 1572...
I am a Protestant, I believe the way my Huguenot ancestors believed...every Word of the Bible...
and not what a man tells me to believe, sans the Holy Bible...
BTW are not the Catholics the vampires in that they believe they are actually drinking blood ???
another BTW those Huguenot ancestors of mine were ex-Catholics...but they chose to believe the Bible and left the Catholic Church...
What is the way God has prepared for man to be saved?
Baptism
Dying in state of grace (no mortal sin)
Belief in divinely revealed doctrine. Available in the Bible or as summarized in the Catholic Catechism
http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/index.cfm
Being a practicing member of the Body of Christ in the Church founded by Jesus.
Prayer and the Sacraments
Paul assures us that God wills all men to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4). He must then have provided the means for that will to be accomplished, which means salvation must be at least possible for everyone.
In His wisdom, Jesus did not want to leave us
orphans and unaware of our need for salvation, therefore
He established the priesthood as a perpetual reminder of the gift of salvation He won for us on the Cross.
Secondly, is there are way for a non-Catholic sinner to know that he or she has been permanently reconciled to God that does not entail joining only the Roman Catholic church and giving alms to it?
One will know for sure upon death.
Obviously live a sin free life with the help of the Sacraments.
God is the judge and will see what is in one’s heart and will have mercy but be fair.
I personally feel that a baptized Catholic that leaves the Catholic church will have trouble.
Many are invited, but few are chosen.
Here is an answer to your question:
http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/whats-the-correct-understanding-of-no-salvation-outside-the-church
However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.
The Catholic church is entirely a voluntary organization and their is no legal requirement to contribute to the Church, yes a moral one to support the local parish. I am not aware of anyone being prevented from participating in the Catholic Church because of any requirement of giving alms.
Sincere questions for you or any Catholic reading this thread.
I do hope that this is a sincere question and I have tried to answer as honestly as I can
There were several articles reference in posts 7, 9, 10 and 23 that may also help.
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/are-catholics-born-again
http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/salvation-for-non-christians-explained-sola-scriptura
When did I call anyone a vampire ???
Today is August 24th...
I merely was commenting on the St Bartholomew’s Day massacre which happened August 24, 1572...
I am a Protestant, I believe the way my Huguenot ancestors believed...every Word of the Bible...
and not what a man tells me to believe, sans the Holy Bible...
BTW are not the Catholics the vampires in that they believe they are actually drinking blood ???
another BTW those Huguenot ancestors of mine were ex-Catholics...but they chose to believe the Bible and left the Catholic Church...
The text indicates the stripes are punishment given when the LORD judges that servant. For the myriads of servants in the two millennia since their passing I would read that as the very night of their death. How long the beatings continue depends on what was committed to them, and what they did with it. The parable is a master disciplining his servants upon his return. One servant’s behavior is so egregious he is assigned a portion with unbelievers. Other servants are beaten. Another servant is made master over the entire household. All of this is according to their works mitigated by their understanding of the master’s orders.
The master is the Messiah. The little flock, and others, are the servants.
Good deflection.
You mentioned a scripture and also a false practice of Catholicism.
The latter was referred to as a fairy tale.
Shame!
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