New Study: The Shroud of Turin and the Sudarium of Oviedo Covered the Same Person

Aletelial ^ | April 11, 2016 | Paraula

[annalex]

1. Was there a word for “wrist” back then? That is, did the people of that time distinguish between the “hand” and the “wrist”?

Yes and yes. The words is "καρπός" (heard of "carpal tunnel"?):

καρπός 2

From Liddell Scott follow to the text from Euripides, where Creusa says "I wear them [golden chains] on my wrist".

Does such a word appear in Scripture?

Many times, but not as a reference to wrists. The same word also means "fruit":

καρπός 1

As "fruit" it appears dozens of times; also there is one reference to Carpus to whom St. Paull trusted his coat (2 Timothy 4:13). As "wrist" it does not appear anywhere in the New Testament.

"χείρ" is the stem for "hand"; it is a very common Greek word:

χείρ

As you can see, the Liddell Scott translate it as "hand and arm, arm". In fact, in some other languages I know the casual word for upper extremity means the whole thing: palm, forearm and arm.

"χείρ" is the word used in Luke 24:39-40 and John 20:25,27 referring to the wounds of Christ.

[Arthur McGowan]

Right. It wasn’t a piece of First Century cloth.

[Toespi]

Thank you for sharing this video. I just finished watching it and loved it. Thanks again!

[Swordmaker]

“There was a hundred pounds or so of ointments and herbs smeared all over and covering Jesus’ body..”

The women came to the Tomb with the ointments but the tomb was empty

No, Joseph of Arimathea bought the expensive ointments and herbs, as well as the grave cloth. It was he who packed them around the body of Jesus in the tomb at the end of the day of crucifixion before sundown, hurriedly, and then pulled the cloth over the body. He and his assistants did not have time to complete the ritual cleaning and anointing of the body. The women were going back after the Sabbath to complete the task.

[EternalHope]

This would then tend to contradict the carbon dating of the shroud to the 13th century.

The carbon dating of the shroud was based on samples taken from a portion of the shroud that had been repaired by its caretakers long after the shroud was woven.

There are other issues with the carbon dating as well, but this alone is enough to invalidate the carbon dating.

To me, one of the most fascinating aspects of the shroud is the match between the painting of Jesus Christ by Akiane Kramarik. I have met Akiane and her family. According to them, facial recognition software has been used to compare her painting with the image on the shroud. They are a match.

We have a giclee of her painting of Jesus Christ hanging in a place of honor on a wall in our home.

[Swordmaker]

It is believed that the test was done on a patched area on the edge of the shroud. The person doing the patching inter-weaved new material into the burnt shroud, after it was damaged by fire.

Couple of corrections. I would replace the word "believed" with "proved," as it has been conclusively shown that there are replaced threads of dyed cotton in the area that was tested that do not match the rest of the Shroud.

Also, while the patch job was done "after it was damaged by fire," it was not repaired in that corner immediately after, not subsequently due to that fire. The damage that was repaired was due far more to years of handling by persons holding the shroud by that corner and actually nailing, or pinning, the Shroud up on walls for display. It was also the practice to tie it to poles and parade it through the streets in the first millennium in such a manner, hanging by the two opposing corners. This meant those two corners got the brunt of the wear and tear and required repair. There is an obvious patch even closer to the corner of the Shroud, made from another kind of cloth. This corner and the one at the other end were the two areas of the Shroud that the Shroud of Turin Research Project scientists agreed should be avoided in selection of C-14 samples for testing due to the facts that it was both physically and chemically different than the rest of the Shroud material. . . yet that was from where the single 1988 C-14 master test sample was cut. That test was sabotaged from the very first sampling.

[Swordmaker]

Was it not the custom of the time for Rabbis to be married ????

To be called a Rabbi, a man had to be married. Jesus was called Rabbi. It is not a stretch to think that a 30 year old man was married. The New Testament is silent on the subject of Jesus' marital status. It also does not refer to Mary Magdalene as the prostitute. That is an assumption based on the nearness of her mention appearance as a follower of Jesus after his forgiveness of the harlot and his command to sin no more. That concatenation of events cannot be construed to mean that Mary Magdalene was the harlot.

[Swordmaker]

"I wouldn’t assume that crucifixion was always done exactly the same way."

True...one of the apostles (I think Peter?) was crucified upside-down, wasn't he?

Yes, at his own request, because he did not want to be considered equal to Jesus. The Romans were agreeable to his request, so long as he was executed.

[Swordmaker]

Celibacy was uncommon but not unheard of. As far as we know, John the Baptist was celibate. Celibacy was also practiced in the Essene community at Qumran.

John the Baptist was not called a Rabbi. . .

[Swordmaker]

Right. It wasn’t a piece of First Century cloth.

If by that you mean that part of it wasn't First Century cloth, then no, you are wrong because, it was part of a First Century cloth because the 1st Century threads were still part of the original Shroud with newly added Seventeenth Century threads added.

The newer 17th Century threads were added and woven into the original existing 1st Century threads of the Shroud Cloth without removing them from the cloth.

If, you mean it was not a purely 1st Century cloth, but rather a contaminated 1st Century cloth that was tested, then you'd be right.

[al_c]

The documentary I saw looked at it under a microscope. The threads ran differently than the rest of the cloth. A very good patch, they said, but not so much under magnification.

[mumblypeg]

AFAIK, the term rabbi, or rabbouni, means teacher, and yes, he is called rabbouni a couple of times by apostles in the New Testament. Whether or not marriage was customary, much less ** required ** at that time, in order to **be** a rabbi, I do not know. That’s an important distinction.
We know that at the age of 12 he amazed the elders of the temple with his knowledge of scripture, and that at the beginning of his ministry at age 30 he stood and read from prophecy that pointed to himself as the Messiah.
Subsequently, the Pharisees set out to trip him up and denounce him at every turn, culminating in Caiphas turning him over to the Romans after that little incident involving the moneychangers, and Judas’ betrayal.
So it’s unlikely he was considered a capital R- Rabbi with any such official status in the Temple. But yes, clearly the ragtag bunch of his followers considered him a very special teacher.

And yes, I know Mary Magdalene was not a prostitute; the New Testament indicates she was a wealthy woman who had suffered, and been healed of “seven demons” by Jesus. In gratitude, she joined among a group of women who “provided from out of their means” to support Jesus’ ministry.
That does not mean they were married.

Some gnostic writings of the 4th century suggest Mary Magdalene was closer to Jesus than the other apostles, hinting at kissing and so forth.

Also there are numerous shrines honoring Mary Magdalene in what is now the south of France; according to some legends that is where she spent her final days.

The authors of Holy Blood, Holy Grail incorporate these two items amongst a whole lot of other made-up pure-dee folderol to deduce that the “holy grail” was not, as we’ve been told, the cup from which Christ drank at the last supper, but instead (the authors claim) the bloodline of Jesus in the Carthaginians (or Merovingians—it’s been awhile since I read it) and that Jesus’ physical heirs are alive today and plotting world domination.

So I stand by my original assertion that the book Holy Blood, Holy Grail is preposterous nonsense.

[Swordmaker]

The authors of Holy Blood, Holy Grail incorporate these two items amongst a whole lot of other made-up pure-dee folderol to deduce that the “holy grail” was not, as we’ve been told, the cup from which Christ drank at the last supper, but instead (the authors claim) the bloodline of Jesus in the Carthaginians (or Merovingians—it’s been awhile since I read it) and that Jesus’ physical heirs are alive today and plotting world domination.

I've read it too. . . and there are a lot of leaps of logic and assumptions of facts not truly in evidence. . . and some "facts" that are made up out of whole cloth.

[VermiciousKnid]

My pleasure. It’s one of my favorite History Channel programs.

Regards,

[Swordmaker]

The documentary I saw looked at it under a microscope. The threads ran differently than the rest of the cloth. A very good patch, they said, but not so much under magnification.

I don't know what documentary you saw, but the weave is the same, a three-over-one twill. What I wrote is accurate. The C-14 samples were destroyed by burning in the test except for one sub-sample that was retained for future use. That one has photo-micrographs available and the weave is the same on either side, the one with original Shroud material, and the side with new cotton.

The Zurich C-14 Lab sub-sample of the Shroud of Turin.
Three over-one-twill, just like the rest of the Shroud.

These are FACTS, al_c, not something made up.

The C-14 Sampling location under fluorescent light. Note the greenish
color of the fluorescence on the left areas of dyed cotton threads. The
right hand delineated area is the C-14 master sample with subsamples.
However, the actual map of the sub-samples was later changed and there
were five approximately equal size sub-samples cut from the master sample.

There is very little visible difference between the patched area and the main body of the Shroud except under ultraviolet light. . . and when looked at under a stereoscopic microscope to compare the average size of the threads when one can notice the sizes are slightly different. Measuring them shows the difference.

Ultraviolet Light image of one of the threads from the preserved C-14
sample showing Linen on the Right intertwined with dyed Cotton on the left
fluorescing green wherever there is dye. — Source Dr. Raymond N. Rogers

This is SCIENCE, not a subjective weave difference that would show up on a documentary video, where the threads would run differently than the rest of the cloth. That is just NOT the case. It would be too obvious a difference.

Trust me on this, I have studies the Shroud for over forty years. There were so many errors made by the scientists who did the sampling and documenting of that sampling it almost looks as if it were done with the intent to deliberately sabotage the testing. For example, the original reports claimed that the Arizona a lab receive two samples immediately adjacent to each other, but examination of the photomicrographs that Arizona took of their sample showed they actually received the two sub-samples taken from the the farthest ends from each other, not adjacent samples. . . The Zurich and Oxford samples were swapped with each other from the original reports. This obfuscated the analysis of sub-sample dating.

[Pride in the USA]

Just WOW.

[Iscool]

The ointment was never put on in the first place. See your Bible for the explanation as to why.

It most certainly was...And the bible tells you about it...

Joh 19:39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
Joh 19:40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.

Joseph and Nicodemus took Jesus' body to the grave...Nicodemus anticipating Jesus' death brought along the necessary spices and ointments and the wrapping cloths to wrap the ointment onto the body...They had but a couple of hours to get Jesus prepared...

By the time Mary got there, the grave was already sealed...

Mar 15:45 And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph.
Mar 15:46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.

Joseph and Nicodemus and probably others rolled the stone to block the doorway...By now the day was finished and the Sabbath was starting...

In the meantime the women went in the other direct rounding up some cash so they could buy the spices and ointment that they knew Jesus would need...They were able to purchase the necessary spices and ointment...They located the grave site but it was already sealed with the large stone... They had no idea that the preparation had already been taken care of by Joseph and Nicodemus...And by then the Sabbath was upon them so they were stuck not doing anythng further since the Sabbath was upon them...

Mar 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
Mar 16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

The stone had been rolled away, Jesus was gone and the rest is history...But yes, Jesus' body had already been plastered with a hundred pounds of spices and ointment, performed by Joseph and Nicodemus...

[Dajjal]

bumpus ad summum

[piusv]

I have NO DOUBT that this is the face of my Risen Lord. The image was created at the very moment of His Resurrection.

[piusv]

Thanks for the link. I was going to have my mother watch a DVD with a few other shows about the Shroud over the years, but I think this one is better because it actually explains why the Carbon Dating was wrong.

Swordmaker: have you seen this one and do you think it is more accurate?