Posted on 05/16/2015 2:51:31 PM PDT by NYer
From a reader…
QUAERITUR:
While discussing the ecclesial status of someone baptized by an SSPX priest (is the newly baptized person Catholic?), I had a troubling thought: what about someone who is baptized by a Catholic woman who has pretended to be ordained as a priest? Is that newly baptized person considered Catholic? I tend to think not, since these women have gone to non-Catholic bishops to simulate their ordination. I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts. Thanks for all your work.
Every priest has a story about a “grandmother baptizing in the bathroom sink.” Usually it’s a pious woman, motivated by sincere faith and love for a grandchild whose parents have sadly neglected their responsibilities, or even more sadly, those parents have fallen away from the faith. Therefore sweet, loving grandma baptizes little Claudius in the bathroom sink and now wants the baptism registered as a Catholic baptism. Ideally, grandma has a witness (e.g. grandpa, or Uncle Kenny who stood guard at the door of the bathroom lest his apostate sister get suspicious), and she has used the correct formula to baptize (we can oftentimes be more certain that grandma knows and uses the correct formula than Fr. Lovebeads at Our Lady Queen of Group Process). If so, then we can go ahead and record this as a valid Catholic baptism. In that case, there can be a ceremony in which some of the things that were not done in the inform, “emergency” baptism can be “supplied”.
Holy Church, mindful of Christ’s injunction, wants everyone to be baptized, and so makes it very easy to do. While a bishop, priest, or deacon is the ordinary minister of baptism, any member of the faithful – and even an unbaptized person! – who intends to do what the Church does can validly baptize. Everyone should know the baptismal formula and be ready to use it in emergency situations. Also, it is assumed that if the person, even the unbaptized atheist, uses the correct form and pours the water properly intends, by those correct acts and words, to do what the Church intends.
So, back to the case at hand. This case is not dissimilar from the familiar “grandma in the bathroom” scenario. Except in this case, grandma is a bit more deluded. She thinks she’s a priest.
It’s sort of like watching a little boy running around pretending to be a firetruck. Pretending doesn’t make it so, but its amusing to watch.
Presuming that grandma the wannabe stuck to the formula and didn’t introduce any crazy terminology into the Trinitarian invocation, and presuming that she had some broad (no insult intended) intention to do what the Church intends, the baptism is putatively valid.
Just as in the case of the grandma and the bathroom sink, the child should be brought to a real church in short order to have the remaining ceremonies supplied, and the parents should make a good, solid confession (including confessing schism and possible heresy) to be received back into the good graces of our Holy Mother Church.
What a moving story.
This is not too clear.
Is it talking about priests who pretend to be women? Ie “fake women”?
Is the pope catholic?? Hmmm Maybe that’s not a good analogy.
“Not really...on this site a lot of people make real, real, stupid statements....join the crowd!!!”
Thats a relief just let me know when I cross that line.
I like Father Z’s firefighter analogy, and I propose to take it a step further - suppose the child at play as a firefighter happens to stumble across a real fire and manages to dump a bucket of water on it and put it out. The kid is no more a firefighter than he was before, and yet the flames are still gone.
Acts 8:36-39
Good post.
Hard to imagine a Satanist INTENDING a valid baptism, though.
Nothing in inspired Scripture limits baptism to men alone.
But then, priests aren’t a NT church office either, so the whole post is off...
The text says, They appointed presbyters for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, commended them to the Lord in whom they had put their faith. Then they traveled through Pisidia and reached Pamphylia. After proclaiming the word at Perga they went down to Attalia.
and
This is why I left you in Crete, that you might amend what was defective, and appoint presbyters in every town as I directed you (Titus 1:5).
Proof that the word "prebysters" is in the Bible.
“But presbyters are i”
Salvation, I just saw that this is a Caucus post. I apologize for posting, since I no longer consider my self Catholic.
Love to talk about the topic. Perhaps on a different thread.
Best.
Mormons do not believe in the Trinity as Christians understand it. They believe that there are many, many gods; that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three gods; that they came into existence via procreation ---that is, the three gods all had parents who are gods, themselves--- and that these three gods decided to form a unity which the Mormons usually call "the Godhead".
So no, Mormon baptisms are not valid.
Baptism by virtually every other Christian ecclesial community or denomination IS valid, because except for Mormons, most other Christians share in the Catholic Church's understanding of "Trinity."
My step father was raised in by non practicing Lutherans who never had him baptized. When he married my Catholic mother, he promised the Church that he would raise me as a Catholic. I was only 8 at the time but began praying that my "dad" would be baptized a Catholic. In late March this year, my mother called to say that my "dad" had asked to be baptized a Catholic. Needless to say, I was overjoyed.
Since dad was confined to home in a wheelchair, the priest came to the house. He met privately with him for 1/2 hour to ensure that this was his wish. Afterwards, my daughter and I served as his witnesses. It was such a joyous occasion for us all, especially the priest who had never performed a home baptism. Last week, he said to my mom: "I don't know why I waited do long. I am finally at peace".
OOps! You probably didn’t notice that this is a Catholic Caucus thread. Please read but do not comment.
aMPU: I just saw that you signed yourself off. Very graciously, too. Thank you for taking this in a peaceful spirit.
As Salvation pointed out description of the Church found in the New Testament includes the mention of presbyteroi (and episcopoi). It is actually from these Greek words that the English words priest and bishop are derived, (the former by way of Latin, the latter, directly) and in Greek, priests are still called presbyteroi and bishops are still called episcopoi.
There is a confusion in English because by back-construction from the idea that the presbyter makes present Christ’s sacrifice once offered on the Cross in His Body and Blood at each eucharist, the word priest has come to also be the English translation of the Greek hiereus, the word indicating one who offers sacrifice.
In Orthodox usage even in English liturgical texts, the Greek word is sometime used, and sometimes rendered as priests or priesthood instead.
The question seems to assume that some priests are recognized by God as real.
What if priests believe that they are real but God does not recognize them?
so true, baptism is one of the sacraments you can perform yourself. you can baptize your child in your own sink and it is considered baptized
The first time I read that post I read it as “Ask Rick Warren”. Maybe that’s what he meant.
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