Posted on 04/22/2015 2:34:02 PM PDT by RnMomof7
Within Roman Catholicism (and within some other churches as well) there are prayers that are made for, through, and to the dead. We, as Reformed believers, reject all three of these categories but on different grounds. In discussing these issues with Roman Catholics it may be useful to be able to understand the different categories and to explain why it is that we reject each. We should pray for the living, to the living and true God, through the merits and intercession of Christ alone.
1. Prayers For the Dead
In Roman Catholicism, there is a belief in Purgatory. Although Roman Catholics give varying explanations, a popular perception is that purgatory is a place where, through a period of suffering, the soul is purged of sin (it's worth noting that some Roman Catholics today deny that Purgatory is either an actual place or that it has actual time, but we'll leave that for another discussion).
Those within Purgatory want to be purged of their sins (in Roman Catholic theology) but they also want to get out of there and on to heaven. So people are encouraged to pray for the souls of the deceased, for relief/escape from Purgatory. After all, apparently, this suffering can be alleviated through the granting of an indulgence to the person in purgatory.
The Bible, however, teaches that the souls of believers are, at their death made perfect in holiness and do immediately pass into glory. (See Thomas Watson's discussion, for a more detailed discussion.) Given this, prayers for dead believers are useless, since believers are already in heaven.
Furthermore, while certain folks have (from time to time) suggested that salvation is still possible in hell, it is not. Of course, this itself is not normally disputed by Roman Catholics, who recognize that there is no escape from hell itself. Thus, prayers for dead unbelievers are also useless, since unbelievers are already in hell, from which they cannot escape.
Thus, there is no third category - no third option that exists, where prayers for the deceased would have any value. Accordingly, we reject prayers for the dead as vain and superstitious, and we do not engage in such prayers.
2. Prayers To the Dead
In Roman Catholicism there are, from time to time, prayers to the dead. I would be quick to point out Mary, but this doctrine they have of the Assumption of Mary leaves it unclear whether they really consider Mary to be dead or resurrected (although, of course, as a matter of objective fact, she is dead and awaits the resurrection of the faithful). Aside from Mary, however, other saints are sometimes prayed to within Catholicism. One particularly popular saint in English-speaking countries is St. Jude (aka Judas not Iscariot, one of the twelve apostles), the patron saint of lost causes.
We, Reformed Christians, reject such prayers for several reasons. First, there is no reason at all to think that such prayers will be heard and understood by the dead. Second, not only does Scripture not encourage attempted communication with the dead, it condemns such attempts as witchcraft and necromancy. Third, the use of such prayers suggests a lack of faith in the efficacy of prayers directly to the Father. Fourth, the use of such prayers suggests a desire for the mediation of someone other than Christ, an issue that flows over into the next section, below.
This is one of those areas where Roman Catholic apologists are very eager these days to recast the issue in terms like "we're just asking our fellow believers to pray for us, are you saying that's wrong?" The answer to that question is that we do not object to asking fellow believers to pray for us. In fact, we ought to do so. James 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
However, while many of the prayers to the dead are explicitly prayers that the dead would hear the person and pray to God for the person, that simply avoids the most grotesque abuses of the practice, such as when things are requested specifically from the saints or Mary, which are not theirs to give (such as success, grace, salvation, etc.). Those prayers (meta-prayers that request prayer by the saint to whom the prayers are offered) suffer from the objections as to the lack of warrant or example from the Scriptures as well as from the apparent view that these saints are to serve as mediators rather than Christ. As this is not a direct answer to the Romanist objections, I won't go on at greater length here.
3. Prayers Through the Dead
Roman Catholics sometimes explicitly, sometimes implicitly, offer up prayers that are through the dead. For example, the "Approved Prayer for the intercession of Pope John Paul II" (link) is a prayer that is not for John Paul II (JP2) or to JP2 but it is through JP2. It is addressed to God, "O Holy Trinity," but it requests that something be granted "Grant us," via the intercession of JP2 "through his intercession ... ."
Other times the request is more indirect. For example, sometimes when Mary (or others) are entreated it is suggested (as a justification) that since "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much" that the more righteous a person is, the more their prayer will avail (although, of course, the Scriptures do not teach such any such formula). Consequently, the idea is that we are asking these creatures to intercede before God on the basis of the merits that are theirs.
The connection between the two can be seen in this prayer to God pleading the merit and intercession of Rita of Cascia:
O God! who didst deign to confer on St. Rita for imitating Thee in love of her enemies, the favor of bearing her heart and brow the marks of Thy Love and Passion, grant we beseech Thee, that through her intercession and merit, we may, pierced by the thorns of compunction, ever contemplate the sufferings of Thy Passion, who livest and reignest forever and ever. Amen.(emphasis added - source)
(emphasis added - source)Prayer to Our Lady of Light
O radiant beam of celestial clarity,
O spotless Mother of infinite purity,
O seat of Wisdom and divine reliquary
of the Word Incarnate,
Hear my prayer,
O Queen of Light!
O Blessed Trinity,
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,
You glorified my Mother, Mary,
as Queen of heaven and earth
and gave to her the gift of holding
Your Omnipotence in her holy hands,
Graciously grant what I seek
through her merits and intercession.
Amen.
956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness.... They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus.... So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."(emphases and elipses in original - footnote omitted - source)
I view it as the writer’s OPINION only and nothing more.
What is there that you can do to earn that salvation? If you are doing it by suffering, why did Jesus die?
I like the balance of the difference subjects that are presented on FR.
One of my favorites
Nope, only the truth.
My faith does not teach that “Jesus sends” the souls of people anywhere. People have FREE WILL (which GOD already gave to every human); therefore, WE CHOOSE where we will spend eternity. Jesus was not given the authority to “send” our soul anywhere. Remember He said, “Whosoever will may come”. That has to mean that we have a choice.
IF WE choose Jesus, our spirit will automatically end up in Heaven after our physical death; and if we DO NOT choose Jesus, our spirit will automatically end up in Hell after our physical death. The spirit knows prior to death whether it will end up in Heaven or Hell. It may not want to admit it, but it knows. That may explain why many people make that choice to accept Jesus on their death bed (prior to death of the physical body).
Remember, we are a spirit, we live in a body, and we have a soul (our mind, will and emotions). We are a 3-part person just like our Creator.
This should not be a difficult concept for anyone.
I don’t see how you could be offended by Scripture unless you didn’t believe it.
Sal, Why did Jesus die on the ross? What did the cross accomplish? Anything??
Christians have already been loosed from their sins when they came to Jesus and were FORGIVEN of them.
Whom the Son sets free is free indeed.
Therefore, there is no need to pray for any born again believer to be loosed from sins God no longer holds to his account.
1Thess 4: 13 -17
13- But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14- For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15- For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16- For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17- Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Now God Himself shall bring those who have died in Christ WITH JESUS in His returning, to receive new bodies, then we who are alive and remain will be caught up with them that receive new bodies when God BRINGS THEM WITH JESUS from Heaven.
....But scripture is not to be used to bash other Christians which do include Catholics.
In some places, their Jesus is still on the cross and its to the statue of the mother that they look to.
"Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ." (Philippians 3:7,8).
Yes, the balance of different subjects are nice. But without salvation, those subjects are but dung. No matter how "nice" they appear to be.
I am not offended at all by the scriptures, just do not use for bashing other Christians that is all.
Nope, he decided paying indulgences was wrong and decided to right a wrong. He did a fantastic job, too. The Bible teaches us how to get to heaven and how to live a Christian life.
But, the “church” did not exist until after the death of Christ. The Ecclesia are the believers in Christ.
For the Old Testament believers, their faith was accounted unto them as righteousness. In other words, GOD deemed their faith in GOD to be sufficient to allow their spirit to enter into Paradise (prior to the time of Christ), where they awaited the Messiah who would take them on into Heaven.
Joseph, Jesus’ earthly father, was waiting in Paradise for Jesus to arrive. I can barely imagine Joseph’s excitement to see the little boy he helped to raise enter into Paradise as the Messiah.
LOL.
Either the Bible is true or it isn’t. Just pick a side and get with it. No sense in snarling around flinging false accusations of “bashing” just because someone starts a thread comparing what the Bible says to what man made tradition teaches.
Thanks. Love that song. Oh, went back to my surgeon today. As she said, I am cleared for takeoff! She said my eyes look great. Go back on May 22. God bless.
Who is “bashing other Christians” around here? Do you think that reproving, rebuking, or exhorting are bashing? If you feel bashed upon, then find the scripture that supports your particular viewpoint and we’ll study it together to find the truth. That is different than feeling bashed on because you don’t care for what is being told to you.
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