Posted on 04/22/2015 2:34:02 PM PDT by RnMomof7
Within Roman Catholicism (and within some other churches as well) there are prayers that are made for, through, and to the dead. We, as Reformed believers, reject all three of these categories but on different grounds. In discussing these issues with Roman Catholics it may be useful to be able to understand the different categories and to explain why it is that we reject each. We should pray for the living, to the living and true God, through the merits and intercession of Christ alone.
1. Prayers For the Dead
In Roman Catholicism, there is a belief in Purgatory. Although Roman Catholics give varying explanations, a popular perception is that purgatory is a place where, through a period of suffering, the soul is purged of sin (it's worth noting that some Roman Catholics today deny that Purgatory is either an actual place or that it has actual time, but we'll leave that for another discussion).
Those within Purgatory want to be purged of their sins (in Roman Catholic theology) but they also want to get out of there and on to heaven. So people are encouraged to pray for the souls of the deceased, for relief/escape from Purgatory. After all, apparently, this suffering can be alleviated through the granting of an indulgence to the person in purgatory.
The Bible, however, teaches that the souls of believers are, at their death made perfect in holiness and do immediately pass into glory. (See Thomas Watson's discussion, for a more detailed discussion.) Given this, prayers for dead believers are useless, since believers are already in heaven.
Furthermore, while certain folks have (from time to time) suggested that salvation is still possible in hell, it is not. Of course, this itself is not normally disputed by Roman Catholics, who recognize that there is no escape from hell itself. Thus, prayers for dead unbelievers are also useless, since unbelievers are already in hell, from which they cannot escape.
Thus, there is no third category - no third option that exists, where prayers for the deceased would have any value. Accordingly, we reject prayers for the dead as vain and superstitious, and we do not engage in such prayers.
2. Prayers To the Dead
In Roman Catholicism there are, from time to time, prayers to the dead. I would be quick to point out Mary, but this doctrine they have of the Assumption of Mary leaves it unclear whether they really consider Mary to be dead or resurrected (although, of course, as a matter of objective fact, she is dead and awaits the resurrection of the faithful). Aside from Mary, however, other saints are sometimes prayed to within Catholicism. One particularly popular saint in English-speaking countries is St. Jude (aka Judas not Iscariot, one of the twelve apostles), the patron saint of lost causes.
We, Reformed Christians, reject such prayers for several reasons. First, there is no reason at all to think that such prayers will be heard and understood by the dead. Second, not only does Scripture not encourage attempted communication with the dead, it condemns such attempts as witchcraft and necromancy. Third, the use of such prayers suggests a lack of faith in the efficacy of prayers directly to the Father. Fourth, the use of such prayers suggests a desire for the mediation of someone other than Christ, an issue that flows over into the next section, below.
This is one of those areas where Roman Catholic apologists are very eager these days to recast the issue in terms like "we're just asking our fellow believers to pray for us, are you saying that's wrong?" The answer to that question is that we do not object to asking fellow believers to pray for us. In fact, we ought to do so. James 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
However, while many of the prayers to the dead are explicitly prayers that the dead would hear the person and pray to God for the person, that simply avoids the most grotesque abuses of the practice, such as when things are requested specifically from the saints or Mary, which are not theirs to give (such as success, grace, salvation, etc.). Those prayers (meta-prayers that request prayer by the saint to whom the prayers are offered) suffer from the objections as to the lack of warrant or example from the Scriptures as well as from the apparent view that these saints are to serve as mediators rather than Christ. As this is not a direct answer to the Romanist objections, I won't go on at greater length here.
3. Prayers Through the Dead
Roman Catholics sometimes explicitly, sometimes implicitly, offer up prayers that are through the dead. For example, the "Approved Prayer for the intercession of Pope John Paul II" (link) is a prayer that is not for John Paul II (JP2) or to JP2 but it is through JP2. It is addressed to God, "O Holy Trinity," but it requests that something be granted "Grant us," via the intercession of JP2 "through his intercession ... ."
Other times the request is more indirect. For example, sometimes when Mary (or others) are entreated it is suggested (as a justification) that since "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much" that the more righteous a person is, the more their prayer will avail (although, of course, the Scriptures do not teach such any such formula). Consequently, the idea is that we are asking these creatures to intercede before God on the basis of the merits that are theirs.
The connection between the two can be seen in this prayer to God pleading the merit and intercession of Rita of Cascia:
O God! who didst deign to confer on St. Rita for imitating Thee in love of her enemies, the favor of bearing her heart and brow the marks of Thy Love and Passion, grant we beseech Thee, that through her intercession and merit, we may, pierced by the thorns of compunction, ever contemplate the sufferings of Thy Passion, who livest and reignest forever and ever. Amen.(emphasis added - source)
(emphasis added - source)Prayer to Our Lady of Light
O radiant beam of celestial clarity,
O spotless Mother of infinite purity,
O seat of Wisdom and divine reliquary
of the Word Incarnate,
Hear my prayer,
O Queen of Light!
O Blessed Trinity,
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,
You glorified my Mother, Mary,
as Queen of heaven and earth
and gave to her the gift of holding
Your Omnipotence in her holy hands,
Graciously grant what I seek
through her merits and intercession.
Amen.
956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness.... They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus.... So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."(emphases and elipses in original - footnote omitted - source)
The abomination is an attempt to go through ANYONE other than Jesus Christ to speak to God. Jesus does not need help as the “priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek” (Psalm 110; Hebrews 5-7).
The way to clarify the issues is to look at the gathering for the wedding in Heaven, at the groups that will be there, not just The Bride and The Savior. BUT there will be on one there without the ‘garment, which is interpreted the Grace of God in Christ. So, of the Wedding gathering how many groups do we identify, besides the Bride (the Church, the ekklesia growing since the end of Daniel’s 69th week,taken out before the seventieth week gets going)?
When a person dies, the physical body dies. But the soul is judged instantly by Christ as your life flashes in front of you.
The soul is very much alive. If Jesus sends the soul to heaven, that person has eternal life.
If Jesus sends that soul to hell, that person has eternal damnation and fire.
If Jesus sends that soul to Purgatory, it is so that the soul can be purified by suffering and penance it did not do while on earth.
Remember that all souls must be perfect before entering heaven.
Jesus was not concerned about addressing them directly, calling them exactly as they were. They "looked" the role that they wanted to be seen as, "Royalty" with their flowing gowns and but they were indeed dead inside."
Only to day they carry briefcases
I can see that you people got together through FReepmail or something and decided to start throwing around the NTS fallacy, because it's suddenly popping up from multiple members of your troop. I suggest you return to the council wigwam and discuss when it is actually applicable.
Well, I don’t recognize a single one of them, and I sure don’t have the ability to see into their hearts like God does, so I have no idea ... but I see those nice briefcases!
Thanks for the heads-up, Gandalf.
Me neither but I do recognize the culture in which they belong. So your a briefcase sort of guy ...lol.
I carried one for about 13 years and was very happy to put it aside when I finally laid it down.
Their Catholic religion is completely foreign to the scriptures...A square plug in a round hole...
!st Rome did not have a closed canon until Trent ...
2nd
Remember, Luther's Bible contains the Apocrypha. The books were not removed.Recently on Catholic Answers Fr. Sebastian Walshe addressed the topic Can Doctrine Develop? Fr. Walshe explained that previous to Trent's infallible declaration, there was uncertainty about which books were canonical. Fr. Walshe also briefly discussed the Apocrypha. Walshe admits there was indeed controversy in the church as to its status. It simply isn't the case that the church unanimously accepted these books early on and that Luther removed them.Walshe also says that Thomas Aquinas was not certain if the books of Maccabees should be considered part of canonical Scripture. That is, Aquinas didn't know one way or the other if the books of Maccabees were part of the canon because the church had yet to determine the status of these books. In fact, there were quite a number of people previous to Luther that doubted the full canonicity of the Apocrypha. Even one of the best Roman Catholic contemporaries of Luther, Cardinal Cajetan, held a similar view as Luther did on the status of the Apocrypha. There was even a group of very well respected Roman Catholic scholars at Trent that argued against including the Apocrypha as fully canonical.
http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2010/05/apocrypha-luther-via-catholic-answers.html
3rd)
Also remember that Jerome did not include them in the OT canon .... he separated them ..
Yeah, that'll do it O.K.
I thank you for citing the language of James 5:16. I am not as quick with Scripture as are many of my Reformed siblings.
In the same vein, I ask your prayers for my still quite precarious health. Last Thanksgiving, I suffered a near fatal kidney failure and was not expected to live. I went into coma on Thanksgiving and remained in coma until a few days before Christmas. I was given a printout of FR posts of people generously making my health the object of their prayers and I am convinced that those prayers were effective and that God has granted me a return to conscious life and to my home.
While you and I may differ on the details of our respective faiths, we no doubt agree on many of the essentials. Whether we agree on everything or not, I ask your prayers and those of everyone else of whatever faith for the continued progress of my health through the merits of Jesus Christ and in His name. Jesus Christ is my Lord And Savior as He is yours.
May God bless you and yours.
This is simply discussing a thread currently on the Religion forum
Well don't post a link...Post the ccc paragraphs that disagree with what she said...
If you are like some of the other Catholics here you don't know your own catechism anyway...
Protestant folks throw out Scripture then pretend Catholic doctrine squarely based on Scripture is false. Along with repeating the same slurs the Romans used when throwing Christians to the lions, the majority of Protestant folks have become just like Romans who each worship their own little god that speaks to them through their Self and Self Alone.
Now that's rich...
How do you know??
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