Posted on 04/22/2015 2:34:02 PM PDT by RnMomof7
Within Roman Catholicism (and within some other churches as well) there are prayers that are made for, through, and to the dead. We, as Reformed believers, reject all three of these categories but on different grounds. In discussing these issues with Roman Catholics it may be useful to be able to understand the different categories and to explain why it is that we reject each. We should pray for the living, to the living and true God, through the merits and intercession of Christ alone.
1. Prayers For the Dead
In Roman Catholicism, there is a belief in Purgatory. Although Roman Catholics give varying explanations, a popular perception is that purgatory is a place where, through a period of suffering, the soul is purged of sin (it's worth noting that some Roman Catholics today deny that Purgatory is either an actual place or that it has actual time, but we'll leave that for another discussion).
Those within Purgatory want to be purged of their sins (in Roman Catholic theology) but they also want to get out of there and on to heaven. So people are encouraged to pray for the souls of the deceased, for relief/escape from Purgatory. After all, apparently, this suffering can be alleviated through the granting of an indulgence to the person in purgatory.
The Bible, however, teaches that the souls of believers are, at their death made perfect in holiness and do immediately pass into glory. (See Thomas Watson's discussion, for a more detailed discussion.) Given this, prayers for dead believers are useless, since believers are already in heaven.
Furthermore, while certain folks have (from time to time) suggested that salvation is still possible in hell, it is not. Of course, this itself is not normally disputed by Roman Catholics, who recognize that there is no escape from hell itself. Thus, prayers for dead unbelievers are also useless, since unbelievers are already in hell, from which they cannot escape.
Thus, there is no third category - no third option that exists, where prayers for the deceased would have any value. Accordingly, we reject prayers for the dead as vain and superstitious, and we do not engage in such prayers.
2. Prayers To the Dead
In Roman Catholicism there are, from time to time, prayers to the dead. I would be quick to point out Mary, but this doctrine they have of the Assumption of Mary leaves it unclear whether they really consider Mary to be dead or resurrected (although, of course, as a matter of objective fact, she is dead and awaits the resurrection of the faithful). Aside from Mary, however, other saints are sometimes prayed to within Catholicism. One particularly popular saint in English-speaking countries is St. Jude (aka Judas not Iscariot, one of the twelve apostles), the patron saint of lost causes.
We, Reformed Christians, reject such prayers for several reasons. First, there is no reason at all to think that such prayers will be heard and understood by the dead. Second, not only does Scripture not encourage attempted communication with the dead, it condemns such attempts as witchcraft and necromancy. Third, the use of such prayers suggests a lack of faith in the efficacy of prayers directly to the Father. Fourth, the use of such prayers suggests a desire for the mediation of someone other than Christ, an issue that flows over into the next section, below.
This is one of those areas where Roman Catholic apologists are very eager these days to recast the issue in terms like "we're just asking our fellow believers to pray for us, are you saying that's wrong?" The answer to that question is that we do not object to asking fellow believers to pray for us. In fact, we ought to do so. James 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
However, while many of the prayers to the dead are explicitly prayers that the dead would hear the person and pray to God for the person, that simply avoids the most grotesque abuses of the practice, such as when things are requested specifically from the saints or Mary, which are not theirs to give (such as success, grace, salvation, etc.). Those prayers (meta-prayers that request prayer by the saint to whom the prayers are offered) suffer from the objections as to the lack of warrant or example from the Scriptures as well as from the apparent view that these saints are to serve as mediators rather than Christ. As this is not a direct answer to the Romanist objections, I won't go on at greater length here.
3. Prayers Through the Dead
Roman Catholics sometimes explicitly, sometimes implicitly, offer up prayers that are through the dead. For example, the "Approved Prayer for the intercession of Pope John Paul II" (link) is a prayer that is not for John Paul II (JP2) or to JP2 but it is through JP2. It is addressed to God, "O Holy Trinity," but it requests that something be granted "Grant us," via the intercession of JP2 "through his intercession ... ."
Other times the request is more indirect. For example, sometimes when Mary (or others) are entreated it is suggested (as a justification) that since "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much" that the more righteous a person is, the more their prayer will avail (although, of course, the Scriptures do not teach such any such formula). Consequently, the idea is that we are asking these creatures to intercede before God on the basis of the merits that are theirs.
The connection between the two can be seen in this prayer to God pleading the merit and intercession of Rita of Cascia:
O God! who didst deign to confer on St. Rita for imitating Thee in love of her enemies, the favor of bearing her heart and brow the marks of Thy Love and Passion, grant we beseech Thee, that through her intercession and merit, we may, pierced by the thorns of compunction, ever contemplate the sufferings of Thy Passion, who livest and reignest forever and ever. Amen.(emphasis added - source)
(emphasis added - source)Prayer to Our Lady of Light
O radiant beam of celestial clarity,
O spotless Mother of infinite purity,
O seat of Wisdom and divine reliquary
of the Word Incarnate,
Hear my prayer,
O Queen of Light!
O Blessed Trinity,
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,
You glorified my Mother, Mary,
as Queen of heaven and earth
and gave to her the gift of holding
Your Omnipotence in her holy hands,
Graciously grant what I seek
through her merits and intercession.
Amen.
956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness.... They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus.... So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."(emphases and elipses in original - footnote omitted - source)
We pray, talk to God, out of love for Him, gratitude for saving us, a desire to communicate with He who loved us and gave Himself for us.
We thank Him, worship Him, praise Him, confide in Him, confess to Him, ask Him for things, and sometimes just talk to Him, pouring out our hearts like we would with a friend.
We aren’t using God so that when we get what we want, we put Him onthe shelf.
Sheesh, what some people reveal about themselves with the assumptions they make about others.
If you don’t the answer, I feel very, very sorry for you.
I wasn’t either.
Amen. I was thinking the same thing.
God is the one I sin against and He is the one who forgives me.
I don’t need a man to tell me what God has already told me.
I beleive God and what He told me i His word.
Don’t you?
Nope. Only one way for Christians.
I didn’t expect an answer.
Evasion duly noted.
Are you saying y'all have been living completely sinless lives since your "enlightenment"?
You don't break one Commandment every now and then?
After all the scripture and preaching to you guys, you still don't get it...You apparently refuse to get it...I assume you are trying to get us to abandon the biblical position on the issue...
Of course we break commandments, we violate oracles...But we are not under the law...We will not be judged by the law...
Rom_5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
We commit sin but there is no sin imputed to us...And of course there's more to it than that but Jesus paid the price for our sin...All of it...
I don’t think the Southern Baptists and the Methodists are on the same page on many things.
Don’t you get tired of flipping pages?
They were way back then. Why should I get tired of following along in the Bible? I was at church, remember? Don’t you follow along?
In 1 John 1:9 God promises that if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Just how does the Catholic church reconcile that with their claim that God gave men the power to retain sin?
Suppose the person confesses to the priest and for some reason, the priest decides to retain their sins. Who prevails?
Does God, who overrides the priest, thus making the priest unnecessary since God has ultimate say anyway?
Or does the priest prevail, making God subservient to the whim of the priest and his flawed human judgment?
She's speaking for me and a few hundred million other Christians...
As long as you do not get two classes of clergy, elders and bishops, and or a separate class of believers distinctively titled priests out of it!
Because we died to the Law, so it has no more power over us.
We are under grace, not under law so the law cannot effect us any more.
I really like it how each of y’all speaks for how everybody else believes. Everybody is his own chief, each speaking for the same thousand tribes.
It sounds like you are saying people are free to believe what they want, but they shouldn’t be allowed to talk about it, especially if it’s critical of the Catholic Church. I don’t know how many articles critical of Protestantism that I’ve read on FR since I’ve been posting frequently over the last year. Wouldn’t it make more sense for you to speak about those - in other words, start with your own house - if you truly want all criticism of other people’s religious groups to stop?
And it’s not true that “everyone knows” no one is going to change what they believe here. I believe most people here, judging from their postings, believe just the opposite - that some people might change what they believe, whether they’re posters or lurkers. I’ve even heard a few posters mentioned who did in the past change their beliefs. So that’s simply untrue, and that’s why people post about Catholicism - not because of egotism.
And the main reason why they, and I too at times, post on the Catholic Church is that its doctrines grieve us.I started out neutral on the Catholic Church, open to it, even after I read the Bible about ten years ago, but at this point it gets worse in my eyes all the time.
One thing grievous about it? I remember Father Corapi (who I know has since left the priesthood) speaking on prayer, and saying that people ask him to pray, and he said, “But I don’t have power. Mary has power. Jesus has power. The saints have power.” And the Catholic radio station in the Buffalo area, where I used to live, was doing a fundraiser once when the radio host said, “Maybe Mary is inspiring you to call. Or the Holy Spirit.” Their phone number is 877-888-6279, or as they put it, 877-888-MARY. And not long ago a Catholic radio on the station in the state where I live now was asked what chapter of the new book he’d written, which is something of an overview of all Catholicism, meant the most to him, and I wondered to myself if his answer would point to Mary, and sure enough, he said it was the chapter he wrote on Mary.
Those are just a few examples of something so troubling to Bible-believing Christians, giving the Lord’s place someone else. Putting aside the Old Testament for a moment, you can’t find a single instance of someone besides God being exalted in the New Testament, and it being approved of by God. In fact, when Herod gave a speech and the people started to say, “the words of a god and not of a man,” because he allowed the people to say that and didn’t instead correct them and give the glory to God, he was eaten by worms from the inside on the spot. And the whole Bible is consistent with that bright line. Only God is a God.
Hmmm. And I thought only God was omniscient.
Amen.
. You know what they say on the playground......put up or hush up.
I’ve already noted that the question you asked is very strange and implicitly heretical.
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