Posted on 04/22/2015 2:34:02 PM PDT by RnMomof7
Within Roman Catholicism (and within some other churches as well) there are prayers that are made for, through, and to the dead. We, as Reformed believers, reject all three of these categories but on different grounds. In discussing these issues with Roman Catholics it may be useful to be able to understand the different categories and to explain why it is that we reject each. We should pray for the living, to the living and true God, through the merits and intercession of Christ alone.
1. Prayers For the Dead
In Roman Catholicism, there is a belief in Purgatory. Although Roman Catholics give varying explanations, a popular perception is that purgatory is a place where, through a period of suffering, the soul is purged of sin (it's worth noting that some Roman Catholics today deny that Purgatory is either an actual place or that it has actual time, but we'll leave that for another discussion).
Those within Purgatory want to be purged of their sins (in Roman Catholic theology) but they also want to get out of there and on to heaven. So people are encouraged to pray for the souls of the deceased, for relief/escape from Purgatory. After all, apparently, this suffering can be alleviated through the granting of an indulgence to the person in purgatory.
The Bible, however, teaches that the souls of believers are, at their death made perfect in holiness and do immediately pass into glory. (See Thomas Watson's discussion, for a more detailed discussion.) Given this, prayers for dead believers are useless, since believers are already in heaven.
Furthermore, while certain folks have (from time to time) suggested that salvation is still possible in hell, it is not. Of course, this itself is not normally disputed by Roman Catholics, who recognize that there is no escape from hell itself. Thus, prayers for dead unbelievers are also useless, since unbelievers are already in hell, from which they cannot escape.
Thus, there is no third category - no third option that exists, where prayers for the deceased would have any value. Accordingly, we reject prayers for the dead as vain and superstitious, and we do not engage in such prayers.
2. Prayers To the Dead
In Roman Catholicism there are, from time to time, prayers to the dead. I would be quick to point out Mary, but this doctrine they have of the Assumption of Mary leaves it unclear whether they really consider Mary to be dead or resurrected (although, of course, as a matter of objective fact, she is dead and awaits the resurrection of the faithful). Aside from Mary, however, other saints are sometimes prayed to within Catholicism. One particularly popular saint in English-speaking countries is St. Jude (aka Judas not Iscariot, one of the twelve apostles), the patron saint of lost causes.
We, Reformed Christians, reject such prayers for several reasons. First, there is no reason at all to think that such prayers will be heard and understood by the dead. Second, not only does Scripture not encourage attempted communication with the dead, it condemns such attempts as witchcraft and necromancy. Third, the use of such prayers suggests a lack of faith in the efficacy of prayers directly to the Father. Fourth, the use of such prayers suggests a desire for the mediation of someone other than Christ, an issue that flows over into the next section, below.
This is one of those areas where Roman Catholic apologists are very eager these days to recast the issue in terms like "we're just asking our fellow believers to pray for us, are you saying that's wrong?" The answer to that question is that we do not object to asking fellow believers to pray for us. In fact, we ought to do so. James 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
However, while many of the prayers to the dead are explicitly prayers that the dead would hear the person and pray to God for the person, that simply avoids the most grotesque abuses of the practice, such as when things are requested specifically from the saints or Mary, which are not theirs to give (such as success, grace, salvation, etc.). Those prayers (meta-prayers that request prayer by the saint to whom the prayers are offered) suffer from the objections as to the lack of warrant or example from the Scriptures as well as from the apparent view that these saints are to serve as mediators rather than Christ. As this is not a direct answer to the Romanist objections, I won't go on at greater length here.
3. Prayers Through the Dead
Roman Catholics sometimes explicitly, sometimes implicitly, offer up prayers that are through the dead. For example, the "Approved Prayer for the intercession of Pope John Paul II" (link) is a prayer that is not for John Paul II (JP2) or to JP2 but it is through JP2. It is addressed to God, "O Holy Trinity," but it requests that something be granted "Grant us," via the intercession of JP2 "through his intercession ... ."
Other times the request is more indirect. For example, sometimes when Mary (or others) are entreated it is suggested (as a justification) that since "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much" that the more righteous a person is, the more their prayer will avail (although, of course, the Scriptures do not teach such any such formula). Consequently, the idea is that we are asking these creatures to intercede before God on the basis of the merits that are theirs.
The connection between the two can be seen in this prayer to God pleading the merit and intercession of Rita of Cascia:
O God! who didst deign to confer on St. Rita for imitating Thee in love of her enemies, the favor of bearing her heart and brow the marks of Thy Love and Passion, grant we beseech Thee, that through her intercession and merit, we may, pierced by the thorns of compunction, ever contemplate the sufferings of Thy Passion, who livest and reignest forever and ever. Amen.(emphasis added - source)
(emphasis added - source)Prayer to Our Lady of Light
O radiant beam of celestial clarity,
O spotless Mother of infinite purity,
O seat of Wisdom and divine reliquary
of the Word Incarnate,
Hear my prayer,
O Queen of Light!
O Blessed Trinity,
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,
You glorified my Mother, Mary,
as Queen of heaven and earth
and gave to her the gift of holding
Your Omnipotence in her holy hands,
Graciously grant what I seek
through her merits and intercession.
Amen.
956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness.... They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus.... So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."(emphases and elipses in original - footnote omitted - source)
Then why are we told to pick up our cross and follow Christ?
Jesus died for everyone’s sins, but we have a responsibility too.
What do you think it is?
Pick up your cross and follow Jesus. Why does the Bible tell us that?
One of the key ways to discern to whom Jesus addresses something (and He is addressing through the letters of Paul and the Gospels, etc) is to look at to whom He is speaking. The Mormons seem to stumble over the message sent from Jerusalem to the new gentile Christians, because the Church in Jerusalem did not put lots of Judaic restrictions on the new Christians. Judaizing seems to be a profitable endeavor even in our day.
Because we have inherited a sin nature from Adam and that old man must be crucified with Christ as we live a new life by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit earnest of our inheritance.
No.
The Pharisees accused Jesus of being possessed by the devil.
I figure I’m keeping good company if we non-Catholics are being compared to the devil.
Our response to what He has done for us. Our suffering or lack thereof adds nothing to our salvation. He has done it all.
Also, I am not easily offended.
I left the church of the perpetually offended a long time ago.
So you can go out and murder someone and still go to heaven?
What a farce this is.
I know...the Catholics were the ones who pretty much gave it to us as we know it today.....THANKS CATHOLICS!!
You are Petros, and upon this rock I will build My CHURCH....still talking and still very much allive!!
refute the statement.
The farce is the accusation that people think that way.
Jesus paid our sin debt in full.
There is nothing left for us to do in regard to attaining salvation.
Yes, there is stuff to be done in being conformed to the likeness of Christ.
Learning to operate in the mind of Christ and becoming more like Him everyday is what demands our taking up our cross as we learn to say no to the flesh and walk in the Spirit, but that does NOT affect our salvation, which is sealed in heaven by the Holy Spirit.
And the accusation that Christians think they can do what they want shows an abysmal ignorance of the teaching of Scripture and how a born again, born from above Christian really thinks. The Holy Spirit living in someone would never think that way.
While sin does not cost the saved person their salvation, that does not by any means mean that they can or will get away with it. God disciplines those He loves and since we are legitimate children, we will be disciplined for the sin we commit, but we will not be disowned (lose our salvation)
Maybe, maybe not....but each person on Earth is not entitled to interpret scripture to suit their own needs which too many on this site seem to do...there have been some extremely bizarre interpretations of scripture posted here which make most people just scratch their heads and wonder what that person is thinking....OSAS is one of them.
I find Catholic intolerance just as loathsome as that of evangelicals. I am not judging anyone. I leave that to God. I follow the calling I have heard and I do not begrudge other Christians for following the calling they have heard. I am more than happy to explain Catholic doctrine to anyone who voluntarily asks to know it. I don’t feel an obligation to smear every other Christian denomination and point out why they are “wrong”. I ask the same of others. I will let God be the judge of that and may the chips fall where they may. Worship at you choose. Don’t condemn others for doing differently.
God's word is, of course the final statement on anything, and the Catholic church is the only source of proper interpretation of that word...there is no other, there never will be, and no, we are not entitled to do it ourselves....
The sad thing is that advocates of all the various Christian denominations are all honestly expressing a passionate belief and at their core are just trying to help others achieve what they believe to be true. So yes, I love them no matter how much Christian infighting they cause. It is a shame. God does not want us divided, he wants us to love one another. I live for a day when Christians of one denomination will respect the beliefs of those of another denomination, no matter how misguided you think they are. It is their path. I am not going to condemn their path or to judge them.
At mass I’ve said “I believe in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church”. That others believe in another Christian church than Catholicism does not conflict with the vow I say for my belief in one Holy Catholilc Church. That is my belief. I do not judge or condemn other Christians for not sharing that belief and I do not believe they are going to hell just because they are not Catholics. I do not believe they are cultists, but are good Christians.
All of us no doubt are missing something about Christianity that we should know or believe, and none of us is perfect or has the capacity of perfect knowledge. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
The church did not add them ... they were included in the Jewish translation of the bible into Greek that was used in the early church and by Jews until the rabbis removed them in 90 AD.
You are entitled to your own opinions, but not to make up your own facts.
I never said theological discussion displeases God the Father or Christ the Son. I said Christian infighting, judging, and condemning is what displeases them.
To state a disagreement in someone else’s doctrinal belief, even to defending ones own, is fine and dandy. It is when people from one denomination cast aspersion on the followers of other denominations, when Christian denominations are labelled “cults”, when people are told they are going to hell, when people are told they are wrong in their belief and must change to what other believe — all that Christian infighting can’t please the Lord God, or Christ his Son.
I find no fault in Christians who disagree with the Catholic Church and worship Christ in other denominations. It is only the fighting, attacking, insulting, judging and condemning that is wrong. It is one thing to disagree with the Catholic Church, then another thing to start these fights on FR that ALWAYS FOLLOW these attacks on the doctrine of opposing denominations.
I don’t understand why people do this here. They know that nobody on the forum will change their minds from their existing beliefs. We are all set. So all this doctrinal bashing accomplishes is some kind of egotistical satisfaction by the thread maker bashing others and putting them down, and more of the same as their friends back them up.
It is un-Christian.
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