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Prayers For, To,and Through the Dead
Reformed Apologetics Thoughts of Francis Turretin Blog ^ | April 21, 2009 | Francis Turretin Fan

Posted on 04/22/2015 2:34:02 PM PDT by RnMomof7

Within Roman Catholicism (and within some other churches as well) there are prayers that are made for, through, and to the dead. We, as Reformed believers, reject all three of these categories but on different grounds. In discussing these issues with Roman Catholics it may be useful to be able to understand the different categories and to explain why it is that we reject each. We should pray for the living, to the living and true God, through the merits and intercession of Christ alone.

1. Prayers For the Dead

In Roman Catholicism, there is a belief in Purgatory. Although Roman Catholics give varying explanations, a popular perception is that purgatory is a place where, through a period of suffering, the soul is purged of sin (it's worth noting that some Roman Catholics today deny that Purgatory is either an actual place or that it has actual time, but we'll leave that for another discussion).

Those within Purgatory want to be purged of their sins (in Roman Catholic theology) but they also want to get out of there and on to heaven. So people are encouraged to pray for the souls of the deceased, for relief/escape from Purgatory. After all, apparently, this suffering can be alleviated through the granting of an indulgence to the person in purgatory.

The Bible, however, teaches that the souls of believers are, at their death made perfect in holiness and do immediately pass into glory. (See Thomas Watson's discussion, for a more detailed discussion.) Given this, prayers for dead believers are useless, since believers are already in heaven.

Furthermore, while certain folks have (from time to time) suggested that salvation is still possible in hell, it is not. Of course, this itself is not normally disputed by Roman Catholics, who recognize that there is no escape from hell itself. Thus, prayers for dead unbelievers are also useless, since unbelievers are already in hell, from which they cannot escape.

Thus, there is no third category - no third option that exists, where prayers for the deceased would have any value. Accordingly, we reject prayers for the dead as vain and superstitious, and we do not engage in such prayers.

2. Prayers To the Dead

In Roman Catholicism there are, from time to time, prayers to the dead. I would be quick to point out Mary, but this doctrine they have of the Assumption of Mary leaves it unclear whether they really consider Mary to be dead or resurrected (although, of course, as a matter of objective fact, she is dead and awaits the resurrection of the faithful). Aside from Mary, however, other saints are sometimes prayed to within Catholicism. One particularly popular saint in English-speaking countries is St. Jude (aka Judas not Iscariot, one of the twelve apostles), the patron saint of lost causes.

We, Reformed Christians, reject such prayers for several reasons. First, there is no reason at all to think that such prayers will be heard and understood by the dead. Second, not only does Scripture not encourage attempted communication with the dead, it condemns such attempts as witchcraft and necromancy. Third, the use of such prayers suggests a lack of faith in the efficacy of prayers directly to the Father. Fourth, the use of such prayers suggests a desire for the mediation of someone other than Christ, an issue that flows over into the next section, below.

This is one of those areas where Roman Catholic apologists are very eager these days to recast the issue in terms like "we're just asking our fellow believers to pray for us, are you saying that's wrong?" The answer to that question is that we do not object to asking fellow believers to pray for us. In fact, we ought to do so. James 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

However, while many of the prayers to the dead are explicitly prayers that the dead would hear the person and pray to God for the person, that simply avoids the most grotesque abuses of the practice, such as when things are requested specifically from the saints or Mary, which are not theirs to give (such as success, grace, salvation, etc.). Those prayers (meta-prayers that request prayer by the saint to whom the prayers are offered) suffer from the objections as to the lack of warrant or example from the Scriptures as well as from the apparent view that these saints are to serve as mediators rather than Christ. As this is not a direct answer to the Romanist objections, I won't go on at greater length here.

3. Prayers Through the Dead

Roman Catholics sometimes explicitly, sometimes implicitly, offer up prayers that are through the dead. For example, the "Approved Prayer for the intercession of Pope John Paul II" (link) is a prayer that is not for John Paul II (JP2) or to JP2 but it is through JP2. It is addressed to God, "O Holy Trinity," but it requests that something be granted "Grant us," via the intercession of JP2 "through his intercession ... ."

Other times the request is more indirect. For example, sometimes when Mary (or others) are entreated it is suggested (as a justification) that since "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much" that the more righteous a person is, the more their prayer will avail (although, of course, the Scriptures do not teach such any such formula). Consequently, the idea is that we are asking these creatures to intercede before God on the basis of the merits that are theirs.

The connection between the two can be seen in this prayer to God pleading the merit and intercession of Rita of Cascia:

O God! who didst deign to confer on St. Rita for imitating Thee in love of her enemies, the favor of bearing her heart and brow the marks of Thy Love and Passion, grant we beseech Thee, that through her intercession and merit, we may, pierced by the thorns of compunction, ever contemplate the sufferings of Thy Passion, who livest and reignest forever and ever. Amen.
(emphasis added - source)

See this similar prayer to God through Mary:
Prayer to Our Lady of Light

O radiant beam of celestial clarity,
O spotless Mother of infinite purity,
O seat of Wisdom and divine reliquary
of the Word Incarnate,
Hear my prayer,
O Queen of Light!
O Blessed Trinity,
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,
You glorified my Mother, Mary,
as Queen of heaven and earth
and gave to her the gift of holding
Your Omnipotence in her holy hands,
Graciously grant what I seek
through her merits and intercession.
Amen.
(emphasis added - source)

This can be further seen within the writings of Roman Catholicism. For example, Pious XII quotes with approval from a writing attributed to Eadmer (circa A.D. 1060 to circa A.D. 1124) as follows: "just as . . . God, by making all through His power, is Father and Lord of all, so the blessed Mary, by repairing all through her merits, is Mother and Queen of all; for God is the Lord of all things, because by His command He establishes each of them in its own nature, and Mary is the Queen of all things, because she restores each to its original dignity through the grace which she merited." (Ad Caeli Reginam (To the Queen of Heaven) section 36 - link)

It also can be seen in the "Catechism of the Catholic Church" section 956:
956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness.... They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus.... So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."
(emphases and elipses in original - footnote omitted - source)

This is the point at which the Roman Catholic position comes into direct conflict with the unique mediatorial role of Christ (despite the contrary claim - anticipating this assertion of ours - that you see in CCC 956). Only by Christ's merits can we come before God. The merits of a mere man (like John Paul II, even assuming he were a godly man) are of infinitesimal value compared with the righteousness of Christ.

It is by Christ and by Christ alone that we have access to the Father - not by Mary, not by the saints. Even when we ask our fellow believers to pray for us, we do not (or at least we certainly ought not) ask them to do so on the basis of their own merits, but alone on the basis of Christ's merits.

We give token of this when we conclude our prayers, "in Jesus' name, Amen." That expression "In Jesus' name" is asking that God consider our prayer on the basis of Christ's merits, not our own. However, when someone prays the approved prayer for JP2's intercession, they are praying for God to consider JP2's merits. The same is the case (in general) with any prayers that are made either through or to the deceased in the Roman Catholic schema.

Conclusion

Prayers are to be offered through the merits of Christ and in the name of Christ. We are exhorted and encouraged to do so by Scripture:

John 16:23-27
23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. 24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. 25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. 26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: 27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

John 14:12-14
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Ephesians 3:11-12
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: 12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Hebrews 10:19-22
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

1 Peter 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

So let us pray in the name of the Lord to the Lord God Almighty, for the living, eschewing the superstition of praying for the dead, for it is written:

1 John 5:16-17
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Psalm 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

2 Corinthians 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Hebrews 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

Psalm 95:7-11
7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work. 10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: 11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

If you are an unbeliever reading this, seize the day to repent of your sins and turn to Christ. Today you have life and hope, but tomorrow you may be in the grave, and in that grave no prayers will save you. So, if you do not trust in Christ alone for salvation, turn from your sins and set aside all other hope, placing it in Him alone for there is no other name under heaven by which men can be saved.

-TurretinFan


TOPICS: Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian
KEYWORDS: christiancatholics; doctrine; intercession; opinion; opinions; prayer; purgatory; yopios
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To: Biggirl; MamaB; metmom
Luther has been forgiven for his cause of creating further divisions in the “body of Christ”.
The issue of paying for indulgences has been resolved a long, long time ago

Just not true ...He stands cursed to hell by Rome, along with all Protestants ...even Rome's "loving" Pope francis has cursed him

261 posted on 04/23/2015 1:05:20 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Resettozero
Yet, here you are.

Again.

Which means, Reset, that there is still a chance for the truth of The Gospel -- God's truth, not Catholic Cultism -- to be heard! If The Lord wills, we can hope and pray he uses this forum to reach the lost.

:D

Hoss

262 posted on 04/23/2015 1:08:52 PM PDT by HossB86 (Christ, and Him alone.)
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To: Springfield Reformer; CynicalBear; Freedom_Is_Not_Free
Paul told us, by the Holy Spirit, that we could and should and must know the gospel. That it is PERFECTLY knowable.

"In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ ACCORDING TO MY GOSPEL." (Rom. 2:16).

Evidently, according to this, we had BETTER know the gospel. And Paul called it: "MY GOSPEL". So where would we expect to find this gospel given to Paul? And why does he call it his gospel? food for thought..

263 posted on 04/23/2015 1:11:03 PM PDT by smvoice (There are no prizes given for defending the indefensible.)
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To: Salvation; Mom MD; metmom; Iscool; CynicalBear
So you can go out and murder someone and still go to heaven?
What a farce this is.

Ask David, a man that God describes as a man "after His own heart"

Scripture tells us that if we break one "commandment " we have broken them all

So a man that lies is an idolator, a murderer, a blasphemer , an adulterer.

When we use other men and their sins as our standard we rob God of His absolute Holiness... All sin is an abomination to God...

264 posted on 04/23/2015 1:18:23 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7; Salvation; metmom; CynicalBear; Iscool; Mom MD
I'm always amazed (although I don't know why, by now) that this question is asked. And it is, every time...

Yes, Salvation and all others who believe this is not possible. Humanly speaking, it probably wouldn't be. But we are speaking of God and HIS plan of salvation. So we have to see it through God's eyes, not man's.

The very fact that Christ DIED for our sins, He did not IGNORE our sins, tells us the price was more than we could ever hope to pay. And how many of our sins were future when He died for them? ALL of them. From the day we were born until the day we die. He paid for all of them. That is just the reason we care NOT to disappoint Him. If I murder someone, it's not a question if Christ has forgiven me, it's a question of if I can ever forgive MYSELF for causing Christ to suffer for my sin. And it goes to EVERY sin, not just the "big ones". They are all an affront to God. That's why He PAID for them, not overlooked them.

265 posted on 04/23/2015 1:37:56 PM PDT by smvoice (There are no prizes given for defending the indefensible.)
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free
>>Who on this thread has Christ’s authority and understanding to teach Scripture with absolute truth?<<

Nobody you say?

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

True believers have been given the anointing of the Holy Spirit. It is those individuals who throughout scripture are not only expected to but required to understand what is in scripture. No where in scripture does Christ assign a "vicar" or "magisterium" to stand in for Him. He promised each believer the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. There is no difference between the apostles and us as believers in that regard.

Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Listening to the falsehoods of the Catholic Church robs people of much of the truth of scripture.

266 posted on 04/23/2015 2:20:40 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: metmom
>>The person who has never experienced the new birth, the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit cannot comprehend the change that it works in a person.<<

And it's so obvious by some of the comments they make. It's sad. My heart breaks to realize how much they are missing.

267 posted on 04/23/2015 2:23:46 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: Salvation; Mom MD
So you can go out and murder someone and still go to heaven? What a farce this is.

Moses

David

Saul (the apostle Paul)

John tells us that if anyone has hated his brother, he has a ready murdered him in his heart.

The farce is saying there's a sin that God can't or won't forgive.

268 posted on 04/23/2015 2:27:08 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: HossB86

Now that you put it that way...

You are right again, Hoss.

R2z


269 posted on 04/23/2015 2:33:50 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: HossB86

Now that you put it that way...

You are right again, Hoss.

R2z


270 posted on 04/23/2015 2:33:50 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free
>>Who is to say which teaching is true or false, as all of that teaching comes from man, not God.<<

Are you listening to some man or strictly what you read in scripture? How often did Jesus say "it is written" when correcting or teaching? God consistently told people to write what He told them. Scripture is the word of God. Paul said anyone who something they didn't should be considered accursed. He also commended the Bereans for checking with scripture to make sure even what he was teaching was correct. I can assure you that those denomination that disagree are also listening to men and what they teach rather than scripture alone.

271 posted on 04/23/2015 2:49:18 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: metmom

Amen


272 posted on 04/23/2015 3:42:05 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: CynicalBear
"Scripture is always used to counter erroneous teaching. Only those who teach a different gospel consider it bashing. The Pharisees didn’t like it when Christ corrected them with scripture either."

The Pharisees also gloated over the presumption that they were worthy of Heaven because they studied the Law and used it every chance they could to gloat over another's perceived condemnation.

BTW: Since this is bound to come up-
The Second Vatican Council speaks of salvation outside the Church in Lumen Gentium, nos. 14 and 16. Here are the pertinent sections from those two articles: 14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved. [. . .] 16. [. . .] Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel. She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life.

273 posted on 04/23/2015 4:50:12 PM PDT by Grateful2God (Because no word shall be impossible with God. And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord...)
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To: ravenwolf
I will have to disagree with the statement below. Never differentiated between bishops and elders,

What i mean by"never differentiated between bishops and elders" was that of referring to two ordained pastoral offices, which i think you concur with me on. And that there was no class of clergy distinctively titled "hiereus"="priest."

I believe the elders were basically the ones who were aged or had been long with the Christian knowledge.

There is no disagreement there, as Titus was to ordain mature qualified men, presbuteros (senior/elder), but he was to ordain such as elders in the formal sense, who are also called episkopos (superintendent/overseer).

Both Timothy and Titus were to pick elders and to appoint them to the position of Bishops and deacons.

Rather, the text you cited, Titus 1:5-7, uses presbuteros (senior/elder) and episkopos (superintendent/overseer) interchangeably, instructing pastor Titus to appoint presbuteros and thus telling him what the qualifications of a episkopos were to be.

Presbuteros likely is used to refer to the character of the person as a mature person, while episkopos refers to his function.

Also see,

And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church. (Acts 20:17)

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)

274 posted on 04/23/2015 4:51:11 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Grateful2God

What’s the English translation for Lumen Gentium???


275 posted on 04/23/2015 5:11:49 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Iscool
Lumen Gentium: "Light of Nations"
276 posted on 04/23/2015 5:23:09 PM PDT by Grateful2God (Because no word shall be impossible with God. And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord...)
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free; CynicalBear

“I will send the Holy Spirit... To teach you ALL things...”(ephasis mine)

Don’t you believe His Word? I take it as a promise, not a premise!


277 posted on 04/23/2015 5:46:14 PM PDT by WVKayaker (Impeachment is the Constitution's answer for a derelict, incompetent president! -Sarah Palin 7/26/14)
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To: daniel1212

And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church. (Acts 20:17)


When I was young in or out of Church the older men were usually in authority, the overseers, and although most was dependable not all of them would qualify as a deacon or bishop so I think I see what you mean.

The bishops and deacons were still elders but the elders were not necessarily bishops and deacons.


278 posted on 04/23/2015 5:58:31 PM PDT by ravenwolf (s letters scripture.)
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To: Iscool; metmom; RnMomof7

>>In 2 Timothy 1:16-18, St. Paul wrote of his friend Onesiphorous: “May the Lord grant unto him to find the mercy of the Lord on that day” (that is, the Day of Judgment). The context of St. Paul’s remarks suggests that Onesiphorous was already dead (see 2 Tm 1:18 and 4:19).<<

It is the Prots and apostates who are calling St. Paul a heretic, not the Catholics.


279 posted on 04/23/2015 6:19:31 PM PDT by ebb tide (We have a rogue curia in Rome.)
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To: metmom
Also, I am not easily offended.

Are you sure?

You seemed offended in your Post 151.

280 posted on 04/23/2015 6:25:01 PM PDT by ebb tide (We have a rogue curia in Rome.)
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