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Three Things You're Probably Getting Wrong about Praying to the Saints
Shameless popery ^ | April 20, 2015

Posted on 04/20/2015 1:46:59 PM PDT by NYer

As Christianity Today acknowledges, prayers for and to the Saints date back to the early Church (in fact, these practices date back far earlier, even to Old Testament Judaism, but I'll talk more about that tomorrow). Nevertheless, these practices are controversial within Protestantism. Today, I want to look at just one of them -- prayer to the Saints -- and show why the opposition to it is grounded in a faulty view of life after death. Tomorrow, I'll look at the Biblical support for both prayer to the Saints and prayer for the Saints.

First, a word on why Protestants tend to object to prayer to the Saints. For some people, such prayers are sinful, since they think it gives glory to someone other than God, or that it's equivalent to “consulting the dead.” Others view it simply as impossible, since they think that the Saints can't hear us, or are unconcerned with what's going on here below. But almost all of these arguments are built upon the same three misconceptions about the souls of the Saints who have gone before us. Given this, let's present the Biblical view on each of these three major points:

Johann Michael Rottmayr, Intercession of Charles Borromeo supported by the Virgin Mary (1714)
1. The Saints in Heaven are Alive, not Dead.

The first mistake in opposing “prayers to the dead” is assuming that we're praying to “the dead.” One of the most frequently cited passages against prayer to the Saints in Heaven is Isaiah 8:19,
And when they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the wizards who chirp and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
Those who oppose prayer to the Saints present a straightforward argument: the faithful departed are dead, and it's sinful to “consult the dead.”

But the first premise -- that the faithful departed are dead -- is false, and directly contrary to Scripture. Jesus actually denounces this view as Biblically ignorant (Mk. 12:24). He reveals the truth about the Saints when He says, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die” (John 11:25-26). And in response to the Sadduccees, He says (Mark 12:26-27):
And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.
So the Protestant view that says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are “dead” is “quite wrong.”

Read the literature written against prayers to the Saints, and see how frequently they're mischaracterized as “the dead.” This isn't a harmless mistake. The passages warning against “the dead” simply don't apply to the question of the Saints. Indeed, a great many popular assumptions about the afterlife are built on the idea that verses like Psalm 115:17 (“The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any that go down into the silence”) apply to the Saints in Heaven. They don't, and Christ tells us that they don't.

The Ladder of Divine Ascent (12th c. icon)
2. The Saints in Heaven are Witnesses, not Sleeping or Ignorant.

Related to the first mistake is the idea that the departed Saints are cut off from us on Earth, and that it's therefore immoral (or at least futile) to communicate with them. This belief takes two general forms: first that the souls of the just are “asleep” until the Resurrection; second, that the souls are isolated in Heaven.

First, soul sleep. The United Church of God argues against praying to “dead” saints:
In addition to all this, praying to dead saints today assumes the doctrine of the immortal soul, which many people are surprised to find is not taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches that death is like sleep that lasts until the resurrection at Jesus Christ's second coming (1 Thessalonians:4:13-16 ).
Now, United Church of God aren't mainstream Protestants by any stretch: they are Sabbatarians (meaning that they reject Sunday worship) and they reject the Trinity. But this notion of soul sleep can be traced to Martin Luther, who wrote:
For the Christian sleeps in death and in that way enters into life, but the godless departs from life and experiences death forever [...] Hence death is also called in the Scriptures a sleep. For just as he who falls asleep does not know how it happens, and he greets the morning when he awakes, so shall we suddenly arise on the last day, and never know how we entered and passed through death.
Even Luther's most militant supporters concede that he held some sort of confused and often-contradictory notion of “soul sleep.” So, too, did many of the Radical Reformers. In this view, the souls of the Saints aren't “conscious,” and so it would be futile to ask them for prayers.

The second camp rejects soul sleep, but thinks that the souls in Heaven are isolated from us. For example, the website “Just for Catholics” acknowledges that the first half of the Hail Mary comes directly from Scripture, but says that these Scriptures aren't permitted to be used as prayer:
Even though the first two sentences are taken from the Bible, it does not mean that it is right to use them as a prayer. Mary could hear the salutations of the Gabriel and Elizabeth because they spoke in her immediate presence. Now Mary is dead and her soul is in heaven. She cannot hear the prayers of thousands and thousands who constantly call upon her name. Only the all-knowing God can hear the prayers of His people.
But Scripture doesn't present the Saints in Heaven as isolated or spiritually asleep. Rather, even in their “rest,” they're presented as alert and aware of the goings-on of Earth (Revelation 6:9-11):
I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Perhaps the clearest description of the relationship between the Saints in Heaven and the saints on Earth is in the Book of Hebrews. Chapter 11 is a litany of Saints who lived by faith, leading immediately into this (Heb. 12:1-2):
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
The spiritual life is compared to competing in a race, an image that Paul uses elsewhere (1 Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Timothy 4:6-7). Here, the imagery is fleshed out to show that the Saints in Heaven are a great crowd of witnesses in the stands. Obviously, this idea of the heavenly Saints as “a crowd of witnesses” is incompatible with the idea that they're either asleep or unavailable to see us.

Matthias Gerung, John's Vision, from the Ottheinrich Bible (1531)
3. The Saints in Heaven are Still Part of the Church.

The Biblical depiction of the Saints as the heavenly witnesses in the grandstands of our spiritual race rebuts a third view: namely, that the Saints are enjoying God's company so much that they've stopped caring about us. For example, a Christian Post column on the subject seems to suggest that the Saints don't do anything for us once they're in Heaven:
So yes, they are not really dead. But that doesn't mean they hear our prayers, or provide even the slightest bit of assistance in answer to our prayers, regardless of how noble their lives may have been while on earth. God doesn't use saints in heaven to bless saints on earth. Instead, God utilizes His holy angels to minister to His children on earth. 
Such a view gets things entirely backwards. Rather, their holiness and their enjoyment of God means that they love us and care for us all the more. That's why they're witnesses to our spiritual race; that's why the martyrs in Heaven are still concerned with justice on Earth. The more we love God, the more we love our neighbor. And the Saints love God with a perfection impossible to us here below.

One way to think about this is to remember the shocking fact that the Saints are still part of the Church. The Bible describeds the Church as both the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. For example, St. Paul tells us that the Church is the Body of Christ (Colossians 1:18, 24), and the Body of Christ is the Church (Ephesians 5:23). The Saints aren't somehow cut off from Christ in Heaven, which is why we see the Holy Spirit presenting the Bride of Christ in Heaven (Revelation 21:9, 22:17). That membership in the Church helps to explain their heavenly intercession (1 Corinthians 12:24-26):
But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member of suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
So both perfect Christian charity and our union in the Body of Christ help to account for why the Saints intercede for us. 

Conclusion

Scripture repeatedly calls for us to pray for one another (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 5:25; 2 Thes. 3:1; Colossians 4:3; Hebrews 13:18), to make “supplications for all the saints” (Ephesians 6:18), and for “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings” to be made “for all men” (1 Timothy 2:1). Neither in praying for one another nor in asking one another for prayers do we risk offending God in the slightest. Quite the contrary: “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

The Catholic position simply applies these Scriptural teaching to the entire Body of Christ, while the standard Protestant position says that these teachings don't apply to the parts of the Church that are already in Heaven. The view goes awry in calling for us to ignore an entire portion of the Body of Christ: urging us not to pray for the faithful departed, and not to ask the Saints in glory to pray for us. Scripture calls for us to “have the same care for one another,” to suffer and triumph with the other parts of the Body. The Saints' glory is ours; our struggles are theirs. 

As you can see from the above post, many of the most popular arguments against praying to the Saints are based on false ideas about what happens to the souls of the just after death: thinking that the Saints are dead, or asleep, or isolated, or apathetic, or outside the Church. In fact, they're alive and before God, yet still connected to us, witnessing our triumphs, failures and struggles, all the while rooting for us and praying for us. 

With a correct view of the state of the glorified Saints and their role in the Church, most of the arguments against seeking their intercession simply dissolve. There's simply no good reason to cut the heavenly Saints off from the rest of the Body. You're surrounded by Heavenly witnesses who are supporting you in your spiritual race. What's more, they're your brothers and sisters in Christ. Given this, by all means, ask for their spiritual help and encouragement!


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Other Christian; Prayer
KEYWORDS: prayer; prayerstosaints; praying; saints; venoration
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To: CynicalBear
>>The Moslems also believe the one true God is "the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,"<<
Would you please give you proof of that?

Yaqub (Arabic: يَعْقُوب, translit.: Yaʿqūb ), also known as Jacob, is a prophet in Islam who is mentioned in the Qur'an.[1] He is acknowledged as a patriarch of Islam. Muslims believe that he preached the same monotheistic faith as did his forefathers: Ibrahim, Ishaq and Ismail. Yaʿqūb is mentioned 16 times in the Qur'an.[2] In the majority of these references, Jacob is mentioned alongside fellow Hebrew prophets and patriarchs as an ancient and pious prophet who remained in the "company of the elect".[3][4] Muslims hold that Jacob was the son of Isaac and that he preached the Oneness of God throughout his life. As in Christianity and Judaism, Islam holds that Jacob had twelve sons, each of which would go on to father the Twelve Tribes of Israel.[5] Jacob plays a significant role in the story of his son, Joseph, and is referenced around twenty-five times throughout the narrative.[6] The Qur'an further makes it clear that God made a covenant with Jacob[7] and Jacob was made a faithful leader by God's command.[8]

721 posted on 04/22/2015 9:25:48 AM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: af_vet_1981; smvoice

Turning it around backwards is not going to help.

That puts the cart before the horse.

Paul wrote to the Bereans not from standpoint of claim for his own personal authority --- or else there would be no reason for the Bereans to search the Scriptures to see if what he said was true.

That is doubly false. First, in that the issue is not as to anyone having authority over another, and by "authority" be able to pronounce judgement over whether what they were being taught was true or not.

What Paul was telling them was true -- NOT because Paul himself was saying so, but more primarily because what he was telling them was true, and that could be well enough adduced by Scripture.

In yet another place Paul wrote to the Galatians indicating to them that it is the Gospel message itself which had been preached which should be trusted;

Galatians 1

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.

Paul was not arguing for "authority of the Church" to then be able to go about altering, adding to, and attaching qualifiers to the gospel, but that such things be precluded. Even if it came from himself and the rest of the "church" of his own time or else an angel from heaven.(!)

I would encourage everyone to take Paul's advice and search the scriptures daily.

If Paul had authority to properly and correctly preach & teach, then that same is not nullified by the twisting and wresting of those who come along later trying to confuse people, and obscure and alter the gospel from what once had been preached.

I have standing to say these things, for I stand not on my own personal authority or claims of my own authority, but upon as it is written.

722 posted on 04/22/2015 9:54:39 AM PDT by BlueDragon (...slicing through the bologna like Belushi at a Samurai Delicatessen...)
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To: af_vet_1981

Wikipedia? Edited 5 days ago by Yamaguchi?

And nothing in your post contradicts the widely-held knowledge that Islam descends from Ishmael, not through Isaac and then Jacob.

Why are you defending Mohammedism?


723 posted on 04/22/2015 9:58:24 AM PDT by Resettozero
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To: ealgeone
See this.
724 posted on 04/22/2015 10:03:45 AM PDT by Gamecock (Why do bad things happen to good people? That only happened once, and He volunteered. R.C. Sproul)
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To: Resettozero
I believe in the God that my Lord Jesus Christ prayed to and taught us to address as our Father in Heaven. That One and Only God, and Him alone.

He is known as "the God of Abraham," among other titles.

You are greatly mistaken about many things pertaining to Who Jesus Christ really is, about Christians, and about Islam in particular.

False

Why the defense of Mohammedism?

False; I am simply telling the truth and not allowing a carnal bias to declare the God of Abraham to be a false god. There are three major monotheistic religions in the world, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. They all look to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as the one true God. They all believe God gave his name (Hebrew Tetragrammaton) to Moses. They all believe God sent all of the Hebrew prophets mentioned in the Jewish Bible. They significantly differ on the Messiah, specifically on whether Jesus is the Messiah (He is), whether Jesus is the son of God and God the son (He is), whether Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead (He did), and whether this same Jesus will come again to judge the living and the dead (He will).

725 posted on 04/22/2015 10:03:52 AM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: af_vet_1981
I am simply telling the truth and not allowing a carnal bias to declare the God of Abraham to be a false god.

Well, no one here has been saying that. You may have understood someone's post to mean that but, in that also, you would be mistaken.

Hope you are feeling well today. Thanks for the replies.

R2z
726 posted on 04/22/2015 10:09:13 AM PDT by Resettozero
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To: metmom
Who needs God when they have Mary to take care of and direct everything?

Catholics attribute to Mary all the works of God, make God dependent on her and subservient to her actions and decisions, and claim they don’t deify her.

There’s quite a disconnect there and then they wonder why we don’t believe them.

I'm perplexed to some degree here.

I can't figure out if this is a conundrum wrapped in an enigma or an enigma wrapped in a conundrum

Perhaps Winston Churchill said it best, but with a few changes:

"I cannot forecast to you the action(s) of Russia Catholicism. It is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma: but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national the interest of continuing the alterations of the Biblical message by Catholicism.")
With a hat tip and apologies to Mr. Churchill concerning his Speech broadcast on 1939-10-01

Mary seems to have become the central focus of Catholicism.

Jesus will come "in the twinkling of an eye."

Hopefully the trumpet will sound just before that so many Catholics heads will turn from looking at Mary and look to their Lord and Master, Jesus Christ instead.

We can only pray.

We sing a song in church called "Keep your eyes upon Jesus." Words to live by for all those that call themselves Christians.

727 posted on 04/22/2015 10:13:38 AM PDT by Syncro (Jesus Christ, the same today, yesterday, and forever!)
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To: Syncro
I was expecting this song.
728 posted on 04/22/2015 10:21:10 AM PDT by Resettozero
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To: af_vet_1981
Islam has a false god, Allah.

Allah has no son.

The God of the Bible does.

One of the main tactics to get people to follow Islam is to lie. Naturally they will claim they follow the God of Abraham.

So, as do the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, they are deceiving many people in order to create a world of Muslims only.

That is their goal, taking over the world for Allah.

If they can't convert with words, they convert with the sword.

They seem to have hoodwinked Catholicism into embracing their lies.

Satan, the father of lies, can pose as an Angel of light... he shines that light on Allah to deceive.

Islam has a different Gospel which Jesus warned about.

Here is the warning from the Bible:

International Standard Version
For if someone comes along and preaches another Jesus than the one we preached [which Islam does] , or should you receive a different spirit from the one you received [which Islam does] or a different gospel from the one you accepted [which Islam does], you are all too willing to listen.

God is very good at warning us against evil. We must have ears to hear and eyes to see.


729 posted on 04/22/2015 10:42:55 AM PDT by Syncro (Jesus Christ, the same today, yesterday, and forever!)
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To: Resettozero

Thanks!

I was looking for a vocal rendition, but could not find on without an advertisement so went with just the words.


730 posted on 04/22/2015 10:47:55 AM PDT by Syncro (Jesus Christ, the same today, yesterday, and forever!)
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To: Gamecock

I agree!


731 posted on 04/22/2015 10:51:03 AM PDT by ealgeone
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To: BlueDragon

AMEN, BlueDragon, and BEAUTIFULLY put! Thank you.

smvoice


732 posted on 04/22/2015 11:25:20 AM PDT by smvoice (There are no prizes given for defending the indefensible.)
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To: af_vet_1981; CynicalBear

.
Boiler plate aside, The god Allah of the Quran does not share the attributes of Yehova, the God of Abraham.

Allah as described in the Quran is capricious and changing, giving sexual favors to those that seek Jihad, and there is no recognition of Allah having a son.

Allah is clearly the moon god, not Yehova.
.


733 posted on 04/22/2015 11:46:14 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: rwa265
CCC 970 teaches how Christ shares His priesthood as follows:
“Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men... flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it.”513 “No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.”514 (2008, 1545, 308)

As you can see, this statement does not equate Mary with the Incarnate Word.

Utter nonsense...Jesus does not share his mediation with any one...

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

You are posting the lies of your religion...

963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer. . . . She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."502 "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."503

There you have it...The mother of God...And the mother of Jesus...We know what your religion teaches and now you do as well...

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

So you say Jesus is the source of salvation and grace but here we see then that Jesus doesn't give salvation and grace to anyone but Mary...And it is the job of Mary to divvy out grace and salvation to whom she sees fit...Benefactress, Mediatrix, Advocate...

Those things are attributed only to God in the scriptures...Your catechism makes a deity of Mary...A goddess...And obviously you know it and apparently is why you don't want to get into the fine print...

734 posted on 04/22/2015 11:47:04 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: Mrs. Don-o
I said my Rosary this morning for your well-being and redemption, daniel1212, and that of everybody on this forum.

What good will that do us???

735 posted on 04/22/2015 11:49:46 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: Syncro

Yes, Islam is a monotheistic religion that worships the God of Abraham, albeit in grave error. As you point out, so do other Protestant derivatives that may be called cults or religions. The issue is not whether they are in grave error (they are) and their particular scriptures are false (they are), but whether they recognize that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the one and only true God (they do), and whether that admission provides a platform for dialogue or evangelism. Do not stumble over the Arabic for “The God” which is a linguistic cousin for the Hebrew word for God.


736 posted on 04/22/2015 11:52:42 AM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: rwa265; Springfield Reformer; daniel1212
This statement does not show much confidence in the average Christian having a good understanding of the Trinity.

Considering how "poorly catechized" FRoman Catholic elitists claim that everyone but them is, that is hardly a surprise.

Besides, have you seen dan's stats on how the average Catholic comes into alignment with RCC yteachings?

737 posted on 04/22/2015 11:57:16 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: CynicalBear

By the way, the noob is no more....


738 posted on 04/22/2015 11:58:32 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: CynicalBear; FourtySeven
(Come Holy Spirit, come through Mary) So the Holy Spirit at pentecost came through Mary? Putting Mary between you and God is not going to turn out well for you.

That's what their gurus teach them...

725 Finally, through Mary, the Holy Spirit begins to bring men, the objects of God's merciful love,107 into communion with Christ. And the humble are always the first to accept him: shepherds, magi, Simeon and Anna, the bride and groom at Cana, and the first disciples.

739 posted on 04/22/2015 12:00:14 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: af_vet_1981

The Moslems also CLAIM TO believe the one true God is “the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,” revering all three of the Jewish Patriarchs.

There, fixed it for you.....


740 posted on 04/22/2015 12:01:48 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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