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Three Things You're Probably Getting Wrong about Praying to the Saints
Shameless popery ^ | April 20, 2015

Posted on 04/20/2015 1:46:59 PM PDT by NYer

As Christianity Today acknowledges, prayers for and to the Saints date back to the early Church (in fact, these practices date back far earlier, even to Old Testament Judaism, but I'll talk more about that tomorrow). Nevertheless, these practices are controversial within Protestantism. Today, I want to look at just one of them -- prayer to the Saints -- and show why the opposition to it is grounded in a faulty view of life after death. Tomorrow, I'll look at the Biblical support for both prayer to the Saints and prayer for the Saints.

First, a word on why Protestants tend to object to prayer to the Saints. For some people, such prayers are sinful, since they think it gives glory to someone other than God, or that it's equivalent to “consulting the dead.” Others view it simply as impossible, since they think that the Saints can't hear us, or are unconcerned with what's going on here below. But almost all of these arguments are built upon the same three misconceptions about the souls of the Saints who have gone before us. Given this, let's present the Biblical view on each of these three major points:

Johann Michael Rottmayr, Intercession of Charles Borromeo supported by the Virgin Mary (1714)
1. The Saints in Heaven are Alive, not Dead.

The first mistake in opposing “prayers to the dead” is assuming that we're praying to “the dead.” One of the most frequently cited passages against prayer to the Saints in Heaven is Isaiah 8:19,
And when they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the wizards who chirp and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
Those who oppose prayer to the Saints present a straightforward argument: the faithful departed are dead, and it's sinful to “consult the dead.”

But the first premise -- that the faithful departed are dead -- is false, and directly contrary to Scripture. Jesus actually denounces this view as Biblically ignorant (Mk. 12:24). He reveals the truth about the Saints when He says, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die” (John 11:25-26). And in response to the Sadduccees, He says (Mark 12:26-27):
And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.
So the Protestant view that says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are “dead” is “quite wrong.”

Read the literature written against prayers to the Saints, and see how frequently they're mischaracterized as “the dead.” This isn't a harmless mistake. The passages warning against “the dead” simply don't apply to the question of the Saints. Indeed, a great many popular assumptions about the afterlife are built on the idea that verses like Psalm 115:17 (“The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any that go down into the silence”) apply to the Saints in Heaven. They don't, and Christ tells us that they don't.

The Ladder of Divine Ascent (12th c. icon)
2. The Saints in Heaven are Witnesses, not Sleeping or Ignorant.

Related to the first mistake is the idea that the departed Saints are cut off from us on Earth, and that it's therefore immoral (or at least futile) to communicate with them. This belief takes two general forms: first that the souls of the just are “asleep” until the Resurrection; second, that the souls are isolated in Heaven.

First, soul sleep. The United Church of God argues against praying to “dead” saints:
In addition to all this, praying to dead saints today assumes the doctrine of the immortal soul, which many people are surprised to find is not taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches that death is like sleep that lasts until the resurrection at Jesus Christ's second coming (1 Thessalonians:4:13-16 ).
Now, United Church of God aren't mainstream Protestants by any stretch: they are Sabbatarians (meaning that they reject Sunday worship) and they reject the Trinity. But this notion of soul sleep can be traced to Martin Luther, who wrote:
For the Christian sleeps in death and in that way enters into life, but the godless departs from life and experiences death forever [...] Hence death is also called in the Scriptures a sleep. For just as he who falls asleep does not know how it happens, and he greets the morning when he awakes, so shall we suddenly arise on the last day, and never know how we entered and passed through death.
Even Luther's most militant supporters concede that he held some sort of confused and often-contradictory notion of “soul sleep.” So, too, did many of the Radical Reformers. In this view, the souls of the Saints aren't “conscious,” and so it would be futile to ask them for prayers.

The second camp rejects soul sleep, but thinks that the souls in Heaven are isolated from us. For example, the website “Just for Catholics” acknowledges that the first half of the Hail Mary comes directly from Scripture, but says that these Scriptures aren't permitted to be used as prayer:
Even though the first two sentences are taken from the Bible, it does not mean that it is right to use them as a prayer. Mary could hear the salutations of the Gabriel and Elizabeth because they spoke in her immediate presence. Now Mary is dead and her soul is in heaven. She cannot hear the prayers of thousands and thousands who constantly call upon her name. Only the all-knowing God can hear the prayers of His people.
But Scripture doesn't present the Saints in Heaven as isolated or spiritually asleep. Rather, even in their “rest,” they're presented as alert and aware of the goings-on of Earth (Revelation 6:9-11):
I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Perhaps the clearest description of the relationship between the Saints in Heaven and the saints on Earth is in the Book of Hebrews. Chapter 11 is a litany of Saints who lived by faith, leading immediately into this (Heb. 12:1-2):
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
The spiritual life is compared to competing in a race, an image that Paul uses elsewhere (1 Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Timothy 4:6-7). Here, the imagery is fleshed out to show that the Saints in Heaven are a great crowd of witnesses in the stands. Obviously, this idea of the heavenly Saints as “a crowd of witnesses” is incompatible with the idea that they're either asleep or unavailable to see us.

Matthias Gerung, John's Vision, from the Ottheinrich Bible (1531)
3. The Saints in Heaven are Still Part of the Church.

The Biblical depiction of the Saints as the heavenly witnesses in the grandstands of our spiritual race rebuts a third view: namely, that the Saints are enjoying God's company so much that they've stopped caring about us. For example, a Christian Post column on the subject seems to suggest that the Saints don't do anything for us once they're in Heaven:
So yes, they are not really dead. But that doesn't mean they hear our prayers, or provide even the slightest bit of assistance in answer to our prayers, regardless of how noble their lives may have been while on earth. God doesn't use saints in heaven to bless saints on earth. Instead, God utilizes His holy angels to minister to His children on earth. 
Such a view gets things entirely backwards. Rather, their holiness and their enjoyment of God means that they love us and care for us all the more. That's why they're witnesses to our spiritual race; that's why the martyrs in Heaven are still concerned with justice on Earth. The more we love God, the more we love our neighbor. And the Saints love God with a perfection impossible to us here below.

One way to think about this is to remember the shocking fact that the Saints are still part of the Church. The Bible describeds the Church as both the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. For example, St. Paul tells us that the Church is the Body of Christ (Colossians 1:18, 24), and the Body of Christ is the Church (Ephesians 5:23). The Saints aren't somehow cut off from Christ in Heaven, which is why we see the Holy Spirit presenting the Bride of Christ in Heaven (Revelation 21:9, 22:17). That membership in the Church helps to explain their heavenly intercession (1 Corinthians 12:24-26):
But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member of suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
So both perfect Christian charity and our union in the Body of Christ help to account for why the Saints intercede for us. 

Conclusion

Scripture repeatedly calls for us to pray for one another (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 5:25; 2 Thes. 3:1; Colossians 4:3; Hebrews 13:18), to make “supplications for all the saints” (Ephesians 6:18), and for “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings” to be made “for all men” (1 Timothy 2:1). Neither in praying for one another nor in asking one another for prayers do we risk offending God in the slightest. Quite the contrary: “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

The Catholic position simply applies these Scriptural teaching to the entire Body of Christ, while the standard Protestant position says that these teachings don't apply to the parts of the Church that are already in Heaven. The view goes awry in calling for us to ignore an entire portion of the Body of Christ: urging us not to pray for the faithful departed, and not to ask the Saints in glory to pray for us. Scripture calls for us to “have the same care for one another,” to suffer and triumph with the other parts of the Body. The Saints' glory is ours; our struggles are theirs. 

As you can see from the above post, many of the most popular arguments against praying to the Saints are based on false ideas about what happens to the souls of the just after death: thinking that the Saints are dead, or asleep, or isolated, or apathetic, or outside the Church. In fact, they're alive and before God, yet still connected to us, witnessing our triumphs, failures and struggles, all the while rooting for us and praying for us. 

With a correct view of the state of the glorified Saints and their role in the Church, most of the arguments against seeking their intercession simply dissolve. There's simply no good reason to cut the heavenly Saints off from the rest of the Body. You're surrounded by Heavenly witnesses who are supporting you in your spiritual race. What's more, they're your brothers and sisters in Christ. Given this, by all means, ask for their spiritual help and encouragement!


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Other Christian; Prayer
KEYWORDS: prayer; prayerstosaints; praying; saints; venoration
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To: Eucharista
FOr the first 350+ years after the first Pentecost there was no bible, only the verbal Traditions of the Church

Oh?

Just because the various writings were NOT bound together sure doesn't mean they did not exist.


Colossians 4:16
After this letter has been read to you, see that it is also read in the church of the Laodiceans and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea.


HMMMmmm...

Nothing about understanding the Traditions of the Church Fathers...

541 posted on 04/21/2015 6:15:49 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Eucharista
I have not received the warmest of welcomes either.

Says the fella(?) that blew his chance at making a good first impression...

542 posted on 04/21/2015 6:16:41 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ealgeone

Well!


543 posted on 04/21/2015 6:16:51 PM PDT by Gamecock (Why do bad things happen to good people? That only happened once, and He volunteered. R.C. Sproul)
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To: Elsie

I often seem get the nervous-nelly young fella being tended by his stern-faced and tense handler, ready to jerk the boy off my porch if need be.

(How come they always know when not to visit.)


544 posted on 04/21/2015 6:17:03 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: Eucharista
I've never heard anyone compare prayer to crack cocaine before, but then I've been a Catholic all of my life.

AHHHhhh...

The MORMON equivalent of BIC.

545 posted on 04/21/2015 6:17:21 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
The next line following the verse you quoted, says that their offense was "worshiping" the creature rather than the Creator.

Well...

...are not 'saints' CREATURES?

546 posted on 04/21/2015 6:18:06 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Scripture seaks of people rightly being glorified in the past and the present, as well as in the future at the "last trumpet".

I see you know something about the Last Trump.

Who is gonna rise from the graves?

Who are the 'dead in Christ'?

547 posted on 04/21/2015 6:19:23 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ealgeone
"Why not just focus on John 14:6 and study the life of Christ? Keep Him as the main focus."

Yes, I agree. We do focus on Christ when we pray the Rosary. I want to repeat that: the "Marian" meditations are Christocentric.

Second, the official public prayer of the Church is not the Rosary, but the Mass. Google the text, and you will notice that Mary is mentioned ONCE in the Mass, and even then she does not get even a whole sentence to herself. Here's the text:

I confess to almighty God
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have greatly sinned
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done
and in what I have failed to do,
through my fault,
through my fault,
through my most grievous fault;
therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin,
all the Angels and Saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God.
This Mass prayer, called the Confiteor, is a classic example of intercessory prayer through the Communion of Saints.

548 posted on 04/21/2015 6:19:38 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("God, in destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor." - John Calvin)
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To: Iscool

Reading the mind of another Free per, e.g. ‘you know’ - is a form of making it personal. Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.


549 posted on 04/21/2015 6:19:43 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Eucharista
Wow, I wasn't aware that mind reading was a gift of the Holy Spirit...

True; that's why no Catholics are capable of it.

550 posted on 04/21/2015 6:20:12 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Eucharista
Salvation came to the world through Mary.

And on that peg hangs many an RCC extrapolated error and misunderstanding of Who Jesus of Nazareth really is.
551 posted on 04/21/2015 6:20:13 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: Eucharista
God loves everyone.

Even Esau...

552 posted on 04/21/2015 6:20:57 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: NYer
Name them.

I've an antique indulgence I'd like to sell.

Interested?

553 posted on 04/21/2015 6:22:06 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Eucharista; CynicalBear; metmom; Gamecock
I could really care less for your attempt at covering your lack of knowledge of your own catechism which you claim you're certified in.

You may recall this exchange.

ealgeone: >>"And like how the creation days are viewed symbolically."<<

Eucharista: Please provide a citation because that is not Church teaching.

337 God himself created the visible world in all its richness, diversity and order. Scripture presents the work of the Creator symbolically as a succession of six days of divine "work",....

As you don't know your own catechism, in which you claim to be certified, which we've shown that you apparently don't know it, I have zero confidence in your explanation and your attempt to change the topic.

I don't bluff.

554 posted on 04/21/2015 6:22:43 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: DannyTN
God's love is eternal.

Jacob I loved.

555 posted on 04/21/2015 6:23:28 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Eucharista
I specifically said that two supposedly "dead" people spoke to Jesus who was fully present in human form such that the Apostles witnessed it. You did not address that.

Well try this then...The apostles didn't ask Moses or Elijah to intercede for them in praying to anyone...It has never happened a single time in the New Testament...There is not a single incident in the bible where it is even hinted at that we should try to communicate with those who have died...

And why would there be??? We are told to communicate directly with God...We are instructed to have those alive on earth to intercede in prayer for us as well...

And what's comical, when you guys have someone 'live' intercede for you in prayer, THEY pray to these Saints as well...

556 posted on 04/21/2015 6:25:16 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Yes, I agree. We do focus on Christ when we pray the Rosary. I want to repeat that: the "Marian" meditations are Christocentric.

If it's supposed to be about Christ, then dump the marian meditations!!

One day catholics will be telling us somehow that the blood of mary is what saves us!!!! W already hear it was because of her "sacrifice" we're saved.....even though she was not on the cross.

It is only through Christ and Christ alone that we are saved.

It is only to Christ and Christ alone that we owe our salvation. No one else. Nobody.

557 posted on 04/21/2015 6:25:57 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: Mrs. Don-o
For instance, here on the Religion Forum awhile back, somebody was quoted as saying that it's better to pray to Mary than to Jesus, because her answers are surer and quicker.


THIS???


Joseph:  Mary; are you asleep?
Mary: You bozo; you KNOW I have to do my prayers.
 
Joseph:  I was just wondering if....
Mary: You hornytoad;  you KNOW I have had this HEADACHE for nigh unto these 12 years or so!
 
Joseph:  A fella can HOPE eternally; can't he?
Mary: Hope all you want; you ain't gettin' it:   I HAVE to remain a VIRGIN for my FOLLOWERS!!
 
Joseph:  What 'followers'?
Mary: The ones who will be bombarding me forEVER with their heartfelt requests!!!
 
Joseph:  I may as well be dead...
Mary: What did you just mumble?  I ain't DEAD; just FRIGID.  Now roll OVER and go to sleep. 
 
 
 
 
Mary: Son? are  You listening??   I've got a bunch more good, Catholic prayers for you to deal with.  Ready?
 
 
 
 

558 posted on 04/21/2015 6:25:57 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Eucharista
A Christian is one who believes in the divinity of Jesus

NOPE...A Christian is a born again believer who has trusted in Jesus (only) for his/her salvation and is indwelt with the Holy Spirit...

559 posted on 04/21/2015 6:27:57 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: NYer
When you post a statement: The RCC has through history taught and then retracted several interpretations of scripture. You should be prepared to support your assertion.

Good concept to keep in mind...


When you post a statement:____________________________________ You should be prepared to support your assertion.

560 posted on 04/21/2015 6:28:24 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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