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Three Things You're Probably Getting Wrong about Praying to the Saints
Shameless popery ^ | April 20, 2015

Posted on 04/20/2015 1:46:59 PM PDT by NYer

As Christianity Today acknowledges, prayers for and to the Saints date back to the early Church (in fact, these practices date back far earlier, even to Old Testament Judaism, but I'll talk more about that tomorrow). Nevertheless, these practices are controversial within Protestantism. Today, I want to look at just one of them -- prayer to the Saints -- and show why the opposition to it is grounded in a faulty view of life after death. Tomorrow, I'll look at the Biblical support for both prayer to the Saints and prayer for the Saints.

First, a word on why Protestants tend to object to prayer to the Saints. For some people, such prayers are sinful, since they think it gives glory to someone other than God, or that it's equivalent to “consulting the dead.” Others view it simply as impossible, since they think that the Saints can't hear us, or are unconcerned with what's going on here below. But almost all of these arguments are built upon the same three misconceptions about the souls of the Saints who have gone before us. Given this, let's present the Biblical view on each of these three major points:

Johann Michael Rottmayr, Intercession of Charles Borromeo supported by the Virgin Mary (1714)
1. The Saints in Heaven are Alive, not Dead.

The first mistake in opposing “prayers to the dead” is assuming that we're praying to “the dead.” One of the most frequently cited passages against prayer to the Saints in Heaven is Isaiah 8:19,
And when they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the wizards who chirp and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
Those who oppose prayer to the Saints present a straightforward argument: the faithful departed are dead, and it's sinful to “consult the dead.”

But the first premise -- that the faithful departed are dead -- is false, and directly contrary to Scripture. Jesus actually denounces this view as Biblically ignorant (Mk. 12:24). He reveals the truth about the Saints when He says, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die” (John 11:25-26). And in response to the Sadduccees, He says (Mark 12:26-27):
And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.
So the Protestant view that says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are “dead” is “quite wrong.”

Read the literature written against prayers to the Saints, and see how frequently they're mischaracterized as “the dead.” This isn't a harmless mistake. The passages warning against “the dead” simply don't apply to the question of the Saints. Indeed, a great many popular assumptions about the afterlife are built on the idea that verses like Psalm 115:17 (“The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any that go down into the silence”) apply to the Saints in Heaven. They don't, and Christ tells us that they don't.

The Ladder of Divine Ascent (12th c. icon)
2. The Saints in Heaven are Witnesses, not Sleeping or Ignorant.

Related to the first mistake is the idea that the departed Saints are cut off from us on Earth, and that it's therefore immoral (or at least futile) to communicate with them. This belief takes two general forms: first that the souls of the just are “asleep” until the Resurrection; second, that the souls are isolated in Heaven.

First, soul sleep. The United Church of God argues against praying to “dead” saints:
In addition to all this, praying to dead saints today assumes the doctrine of the immortal soul, which many people are surprised to find is not taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches that death is like sleep that lasts until the resurrection at Jesus Christ's second coming (1 Thessalonians:4:13-16 ).
Now, United Church of God aren't mainstream Protestants by any stretch: they are Sabbatarians (meaning that they reject Sunday worship) and they reject the Trinity. But this notion of soul sleep can be traced to Martin Luther, who wrote:
For the Christian sleeps in death and in that way enters into life, but the godless departs from life and experiences death forever [...] Hence death is also called in the Scriptures a sleep. For just as he who falls asleep does not know how it happens, and he greets the morning when he awakes, so shall we suddenly arise on the last day, and never know how we entered and passed through death.
Even Luther's most militant supporters concede that he held some sort of confused and often-contradictory notion of “soul sleep.” So, too, did many of the Radical Reformers. In this view, the souls of the Saints aren't “conscious,” and so it would be futile to ask them for prayers.

The second camp rejects soul sleep, but thinks that the souls in Heaven are isolated from us. For example, the website “Just for Catholics” acknowledges that the first half of the Hail Mary comes directly from Scripture, but says that these Scriptures aren't permitted to be used as prayer:
Even though the first two sentences are taken from the Bible, it does not mean that it is right to use them as a prayer. Mary could hear the salutations of the Gabriel and Elizabeth because they spoke in her immediate presence. Now Mary is dead and her soul is in heaven. She cannot hear the prayers of thousands and thousands who constantly call upon her name. Only the all-knowing God can hear the prayers of His people.
But Scripture doesn't present the Saints in Heaven as isolated or spiritually asleep. Rather, even in their “rest,” they're presented as alert and aware of the goings-on of Earth (Revelation 6:9-11):
I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Perhaps the clearest description of the relationship between the Saints in Heaven and the saints on Earth is in the Book of Hebrews. Chapter 11 is a litany of Saints who lived by faith, leading immediately into this (Heb. 12:1-2):
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
The spiritual life is compared to competing in a race, an image that Paul uses elsewhere (1 Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Timothy 4:6-7). Here, the imagery is fleshed out to show that the Saints in Heaven are a great crowd of witnesses in the stands. Obviously, this idea of the heavenly Saints as “a crowd of witnesses” is incompatible with the idea that they're either asleep or unavailable to see us.

Matthias Gerung, John's Vision, from the Ottheinrich Bible (1531)
3. The Saints in Heaven are Still Part of the Church.

The Biblical depiction of the Saints as the heavenly witnesses in the grandstands of our spiritual race rebuts a third view: namely, that the Saints are enjoying God's company so much that they've stopped caring about us. For example, a Christian Post column on the subject seems to suggest that the Saints don't do anything for us once they're in Heaven:
So yes, they are not really dead. But that doesn't mean they hear our prayers, or provide even the slightest bit of assistance in answer to our prayers, regardless of how noble their lives may have been while on earth. God doesn't use saints in heaven to bless saints on earth. Instead, God utilizes His holy angels to minister to His children on earth. 
Such a view gets things entirely backwards. Rather, their holiness and their enjoyment of God means that they love us and care for us all the more. That's why they're witnesses to our spiritual race; that's why the martyrs in Heaven are still concerned with justice on Earth. The more we love God, the more we love our neighbor. And the Saints love God with a perfection impossible to us here below.

One way to think about this is to remember the shocking fact that the Saints are still part of the Church. The Bible describeds the Church as both the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. For example, St. Paul tells us that the Church is the Body of Christ (Colossians 1:18, 24), and the Body of Christ is the Church (Ephesians 5:23). The Saints aren't somehow cut off from Christ in Heaven, which is why we see the Holy Spirit presenting the Bride of Christ in Heaven (Revelation 21:9, 22:17). That membership in the Church helps to explain their heavenly intercession (1 Corinthians 12:24-26):
But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member of suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
So both perfect Christian charity and our union in the Body of Christ help to account for why the Saints intercede for us. 

Conclusion

Scripture repeatedly calls for us to pray for one another (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 5:25; 2 Thes. 3:1; Colossians 4:3; Hebrews 13:18), to make “supplications for all the saints” (Ephesians 6:18), and for “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings” to be made “for all men” (1 Timothy 2:1). Neither in praying for one another nor in asking one another for prayers do we risk offending God in the slightest. Quite the contrary: “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

The Catholic position simply applies these Scriptural teaching to the entire Body of Christ, while the standard Protestant position says that these teachings don't apply to the parts of the Church that are already in Heaven. The view goes awry in calling for us to ignore an entire portion of the Body of Christ: urging us not to pray for the faithful departed, and not to ask the Saints in glory to pray for us. Scripture calls for us to “have the same care for one another,” to suffer and triumph with the other parts of the Body. The Saints' glory is ours; our struggles are theirs. 

As you can see from the above post, many of the most popular arguments against praying to the Saints are based on false ideas about what happens to the souls of the just after death: thinking that the Saints are dead, or asleep, or isolated, or apathetic, or outside the Church. In fact, they're alive and before God, yet still connected to us, witnessing our triumphs, failures and struggles, all the while rooting for us and praying for us. 

With a correct view of the state of the glorified Saints and their role in the Church, most of the arguments against seeking their intercession simply dissolve. There's simply no good reason to cut the heavenly Saints off from the rest of the Body. You're surrounded by Heavenly witnesses who are supporting you in your spiritual race. What's more, they're your brothers and sisters in Christ. Given this, by all means, ask for their spiritual help and encouragement!


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Other Christian; Prayer
KEYWORDS: prayer; prayerstosaints; praying; saints; venoration
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To: metmom

But they sure talk all popey and use arrogance to their perceived advantage. Of course, a lie has no advantage over what is true. Lord Jesus Christ is the Truth.


381 posted on 04/21/2015 12:39:55 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: Eucharista

Get over yourself noob, and you’ll get on with others a lot better on this site.


382 posted on 04/21/2015 12:40:21 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: Eucharista
Rest assured that my purpose here is not to try to convince or convert you. That is the work of the Holy Spirit. I am here only to ensure that Catholic teaching is fairly and accurately presented.

Isn't that what the CCC is for?

And if that's what you're here for, then start doing it. Don't simply just stir the pot.

383 posted on 04/21/2015 12:42:45 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: kinsman redeemer

I have never been to a church where the OT was not taught from. Where do these ideas come from?


384 posted on 04/21/2015 12:47:16 PM PDT by MamaB
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To: Eucharista

**Often those least familiar with prayer are those who misunderstand and misrepresent Catholic prayer.**

I don’t need to try crack cocaine to know it is bad for me.

Oh, and welcome to FR.


385 posted on 04/21/2015 12:51:00 PM PDT by Gamecock (Why do bad things happen to good people? That only happened once, and He volunteered. R.C. Sproul)
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To: NYer

http://shamelesspopery.com/does-scripture-teach-us-to-pray-for-the-departed-and-to-pray-to-the-saints/

The rest of the story, as Paul Harvey may have said.

That, and the points issued but ignored from the OP, pretty much answer 95% of what is raised on this thread as an “objection” to this historical, Traditional, Catholic teaching. As usual.

Also, as usual, I’m sure that (what is linked above) will go ignored too.

Far too many religious choices to protect.


386 posted on 04/21/2015 12:52:38 PM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: Resettozero
"So, it's the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ versus whatever you say that can be verified by the Vatican."

You have the Gospel today only through the actions of the Catholic Church. FOr the first 350+ years after the first Pentecost there was no bible, only the verbal Traditions of the Church and later in numerous written accounts, most of which were errant. In 382 AD St. Pope Damasus I, in his efforts to standardize the Mass, called upon the Council of Rome for a formal Lectionary to be used in conjunction with the Liturgy of the Word in the Mass. The council selected 26 books from among nearly 600 texts in circulation based upon the criteria (canon) that they fully comported with Catholic teaching. Therefore, any text, interpretation, doctrine or belief that does not comport with Catholic teaching is not biblical or valid.

387 posted on 04/21/2015 12:54:16 PM PDT by Eucharista
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To: Religion Moderator

Thank you.


388 posted on 04/21/2015 12:54:16 PM PDT by Eucharista
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To: metmom
"Get over yourself noob,..."

I have not received the warmest of welcomes either.

"Do not neglect hospitality, for through it some have unknowingly entertained angels." - Hebrews 13:2

389 posted on 04/21/2015 12:54:16 PM PDT by Eucharista
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To: metmom
"Don't simply just stir the pot."

This forum has been in a constant state of stir for decades.

"Isn't that what the CCC is for?"

The CCC can be found on www.vatican.va so technically, there is no excuse for the level of ignorance displayed.

390 posted on 04/21/2015 12:54:16 PM PDT by Eucharista
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To: Gamecock
"I don’t need to try crack cocaine to know it is bad for me."

I've never heard anyone compare prayer to crack cocaine before, but then I've been a Catholic all of my life.

391 posted on 04/21/2015 12:54:16 PM PDT by Eucharista
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To: metmom
It’s staggering and yet Catholics STILL insist that they don’t deify Mary.

I took a picture of two statues at a Catholic school the other day.

It shows a high school aged girl kneeling with her hands it the universal prayer symbol facing Mary.

Of course it will be countered she was only praying to Mary (it wasn't Mary, it was cement--there were no tears coming from her eyes) but even one of Jesus’ original disciples (I believe it was Peter) when another man got on his knees in front of him (bowed down like the cement girl above) was told not to do that, I am not God. (paraphrased)

392 posted on 04/21/2015 12:56:39 PM PDT by Syncro (Jesus Christ, the same today, yesterday, and forever!)
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To: Eucharista

Just a literary device known as hyperbole.


393 posted on 04/21/2015 12:59:58 PM PDT by Gamecock (Why do bad things happen to good people? That only happened once, and He volunteered. R.C. Sproul)
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To: Elsie
The next line following the verse you quoted, says that their offense was "worshiping" the creature rather than the Creator.

That would be giving glory to a false god, which, as I said before, God will never approve.

That doesn't at all contradict God's freedom in glorifying His saints, which is one of the frequently-repeated themes of Paul's Epistles.

You have to distinguish between honoring/venerating (dulia) and worshiping/adoring (latria). As you said, there's glory and then there's GLORY.

:o)

394 posted on 04/21/2015 1:00:48 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Praise God from Whom all blessings flow, / Praise Him all people here below.)
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To: DannyTN
"First of all "Jesus does not "love" us all"

No Danny, God loves those that are His..

Proverbs 8:17 ESV I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity," Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates." Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."

Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."

Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels."

http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2012/09/06/does-god-love-everyone/

395 posted on 04/21/2015 1:03:20 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Elsie
Scripture seaks of people rightly being glorified in the past and the present, as well as in the future at the "last trumpet".

All the verbs in the following Scripture -- about God giving glory to His faithful ones --- are past tense:

Romans 8:30
"And those he predestined
he also called;
and those he called
he also justified;
and those he justified
he also glorified."

This passage about the righteous Israelites being given glory,is past or present tense (depending on whether it means they were given glory in the past, when they received the covenants, or whether it means they "are" Israelites who have this glory now):

Romans 9:4
"They are Israelites;
theirs the adoption,
the glory, the covenants,
the giving of the law,
the worship,
and the promises."

Paul refers to his glory in the present:

Romans 11:13
"Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I glory in my ministry."

It is God who is glorified in His angels and in His saints.

396 posted on 04/21/2015 1:10:02 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Praise God from Whom all blessings flow, / Praise Him all people here below.)
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To: Eucharista

Yes, I know. You worship the Roman Catholic Church and/or Catholicism.

Whether you continue with the blustering and repetitious spouting of your dogma and perverted history of your cult, as you have agreed it can be called, or whether you bring anything other than your present hardline/hard-headed/I-don’t-care-what-you-think-I’m-an-RC approach to this forum for Christians, as other RCs have in the past, remains to be proven to us all.

Some of us are contending against the likes of you for the Christian faith as established only by Lord Jesus Christ upon Himself and are not granting an unhindered tyrannical usurpation of the freedoms Christians have in Christ alone, or our freedom to post on FR.

The RCC, however many times you may repeat your own religion’s hook points, is not that Church that Jesus founded. Maybe once it was, in some part, but history (Rev 1-3) and the Spirit indicate not anymore.


397 posted on 04/21/2015 1:17:10 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: Syncro
"Of course it will be countered she was only praying to Mary (it wasn't Mary, it was cement--there were no tears coming from her eyes) but even one of Jesus’ original disciples (I believe it was Peter) when another man got on his knees in front of him (bowed down like the cement girl above) was told not to do that, I am not God. (paraphrased)"

You knew what that girl was thinking? Wow, I wasn't aware that mind reading was a gift of the Holy Spirit...

398 posted on 04/21/2015 1:19:38 PM PDT by Eucharista
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To: Gamecock
"Just a literary device known as hyperbole."

More accurately, it was a logical fallacy known as the false analogy.

399 posted on 04/21/2015 1:19:38 PM PDT by Eucharista
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To: RnMomof7
"No Danny, God loves those that are His.."

Now THAT is another Gospel.

God loves everyone. (John 3:16; 1 John 2:2; Romans 5:8). His love in not conditional, it is based only on the fact that God is love and is a God of love (1 John 4:8, 16). God’s love for all of mankind is proved by His mercy by not immediately punishing people for their sins (Romans 3:23; 6:23). God’s love for the world is manifested in the fact that He gives people the opportunity to repent (2 Peter 3:9).

However, God’s love for the world does not mean He will ignore sin. Sin is the choice of self before God and God loves us enough to honor our choice. The most loving act of eternity is described in Romans 5:8, “But God demonstrates His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” God loves everyone unconditionally in that He shows mercy to everyone by not destroying them immediately because of their sin.

400 posted on 04/21/2015 1:19:38 PM PDT by Eucharista
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