Praying of the Rosary Is NOT Bible-Based Teaching

The Disciplers ^ | 2011 | Ptr. Vince

[af_vet_1981]

What did the angel tell Mary to name her baby?

I would like to answer your question, immediately after you answer the question I asked you first.

Do you deny Mary is the "mother of God with us ?"

[CynicalBear]

The Holy Spirit inspired the words “mother of Jesus”. I don’t add words to what He chose to use.

[af_vet_1981]

The Holy Spirit inspired the words “mother of Jesus”.

Do you mean The Holy Spirit inspired the words of the Authorized Version (KJV) ?

Both "mother of Jesus" and "mother of God with us" are scriptural and true.

I don’t add words to what He chose to use.

That should become obvious.

[daniel1212]

As I wrote earlier, I'd still say that there are stronger objections than using "one mediator" in this fashion.

I did say something along these lines in terms of my "scriptural" reference in my earlier post--not in specific terms about the Lord's Prayer, but in terms of the overall scriptural "witness." In other words, I consider this line of argument stronger than other lines.

That Christ is the only heavenly mediator btwn man and God (1Tim. 2:5) is a strong argument, while the utter absence of other things are as well.

“What saith the Scriptures?” (Rm. 4:3; 11:2; Gal. 4:30) “Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. (Proverbs 30:6)”
1	Prayers in Scripture addressed to God in Heaven	Over 200 prayers, besides instruction on prayer to Heaven. (“Our Father who art in Heaven,” not “Out Mother.”)
	Prayers in Scripture addressed to any created beings in Heaven	ZERO prayers or examples, or in instruction on prayer to Heaven
2	Examples or teaching showing God being able to hear and respond to prayer from earth addressed to Him in Heaven.	Multiple. “I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee..” (2 Kings 20:5; cf. Ps. 65:2; 66:19,20; Lk 1:13)
	Examples or teaching showing created beings being able to hear and respond to prayer from earth addressed to them in Heaven.	ZERO. Angels and elders offering up prayers before the judgments of the last days in memorial (Rev. 5:8 and 8:3,4; f. Lv. 2:2,15,16; 24:7; Num. 5:15) does not constitute this ability, which is unique to God.
3	Examples or teaching showing God able to personally communicate with man from Heaven.	Many. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. (2 Corinthians 12:8-9)
	Examples or teaching showing created beings being able to converse with man from Heaven.	ZERO. From what I see, all two-way communication required both created beings to somehow be consciously operating in the same realm.
4	Examples or teaching Christ as being the heavenly intercessor between man and God.	Many. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (1 Timothy 2:5) For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. (Hebrews 2:18) For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. (Hebrews 4:15-16) Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. (Hebrews 7:25)
	Examples or teaching any as created beings as heavenly intercessor between man and God.	ZERO. See under 2 above.

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[af_vet_1981]

God has no mother or father he is forever! Scripture tells us that his name is Jesus Christ the Messiah, the Anointed One, and the second part of the Godhead. Just because you can’t or won’t understand the reasoning God had to make it that way doesn’t make it not so.

It seems to me you just denied, any or all of:
1. Mary is the mother of Immanuel/Emmanuel,
2. Mary is the mother of "God with us,"
3. Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ, where "Christ" is equivalent to " Messiah" as is "Immanuel/Emmanuel" equivalent to "God with us."

[CynicalBear]

>>Do you mean The Holy Spirit inspired the words of the Authorized Version (KJV) ?<<

I mean in the original Hebrew and Greek.

>>Both "mother of Jesus" and "mother of God with us" are scriptural and true.<<

Please show where the Holy Spirit inspired the writing of either of those phrases. Infallible sources only.

>>

[rwa265]

Let me repeat.
“Anyone who goes beyond what the Holy Spirit had written which is “the mother of Jesus” is purporting to speak in the stead of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit did NOT use the words “mother of God” and we can be assured it was for a reason. Change the words of the Holy Spirit at your own peril.”

---

Yes, you do repeat yourself. It’s almost like a mantra: mother of God is not in Scripture, mother of God is not in Scripture, mother of God is not in Scripture - ooohhhhmmm

Let me ask you this. Is Jesus God? “Jesus is God” is not in Scripture. But we know He is God because the essential truth that Jesus is God is found in Scripture. In the same way, the essential truth that Mary is the mother of God is also found in Scripture.

I have provided several verses that show Mary is the mother of God, asking several of you why you think they do not show that Mary is the mother of God. No one has provided a response.

I will ask one more time.

In Matthew 1:18-23, regarding the birth of Jesus Christ, his mother Mary was found with child of the Holy Ghost. The angel of the Lord told Joseph that she shall bring forth a son who shall save his people from their sins. That this was done to fulfill the prophecy that a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

- These descriptions of the child seem to indicate that he is God, making his mother Mary the mother of God.

Matthew 2 describes wise men searching for the King of the Jews. Verse 11 states that when they came into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him.

- The wise men worshipping the child seem to indicate that he is God, making Mary the mother of God.

If you don’t agree, could you explain why?

[af_vet_1981]

I mean in the original Hebrew and Greek.

Where are the original Hebrew and Greek scriptures ?

>>Both "mother of Jesus" and "mother of God with us" are scriptural and true.<<

Please show where the Holy Spirit inspired the writing of either of those phrases. Infallible sources only.

Do you believe in the God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit ? A simple yes or no would show good faith, so to speak.

[Resettozero]

Luke 1 (NASB)
30 The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God.
31 “And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.
32 “He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;
33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.”

Matthew 1 (NASB)
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.
19 And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly.
20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
21 “She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
22 Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet:
23 “BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.”
24 And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife,
25 but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Luke 2 (NASB)
21 And when eight days had passed, before His circumcision, His name was then called Jesus, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb.

[mrobisr]

Seems to me you are trying to put human reason to something that Holy Scripture says different. Jesus SON OF GOD! Romans 9:20 read it and just simply accept it.

1 John 4:15 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

Romans 9:20 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?

Philippians 2:7 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

7 but [a]emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Footnotes:

(a)Philippians 2:7 I.e. laid aside His privileges

By your own admission you deny God as a man Jesus Christ which is the only UN-forgivable sin. Don’t try to understand it just accept it.

“Scripture quotations taken from the New American Standard Bible®,
Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,
1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
Used by permission.” (www.Lockman.org)

[af_vet_1981]

Seems to me you are trying to put human reason to something that Holy Scripture says different. Jesus SON OF GOD! Romans 9:20 read it and just simply accept it.

Jesus is the Son of God and Jesus is God the Son. To deny that is heresy.

By your own admission you deny God as a man Jesus Christ which is the only UN-forgivable sin. Don’t try to understand it just accept it.

False and false; which branch of Protestantism do you represent so that others more your own kind might be able to try to help correct you.

[CynicalBear]

>>Yes, you do repeat yourself.<<

That's because I stay with scripture. It's rather consistent you know.

>>I have provided several verses that show Mary is the mother of God,<<

No, actually you have not. You have posted verses the you think say want you want per your understanding of the nature of of the man who is Jesus. I trust the Holy Spirit did NOT use the term "mother of God" for a reason. I would suggest He understands better than Catholics.

>>These descriptions of the child seem to indicate that he is God, making his mother Mary the mother of God.<<

That would still make only His human nature coming from Mary.

Only in paganism does a god have a mother.

[CynicalBear]

>>Where are the original Hebrew and Greek scriptures ?<<

Are you saying the Catholic Church pulled the scripture they have out of thin air or what?

>>Do you believe in the God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit ?<<

Not the one the Catholic Church portrays.

>>A simple yes or no would show good faith, so to speak.<<

No, it wouldn't show "good faith". The Catholic Church has proclaimed they serve the same god as the Muslims. I don't, The Catholic Church says Jesus is continually offered as a sacrifice. Scripture says "once for all". The Catholic Church says some people have more access to God than others. Scripture says all have the same access. The Catholic Church preaches "another gospel" so a true believer cannot answer a simple yes or no to a Catholic question about God.

[af_vet_1981]

>>Where are the original Hebrew and Greek scriptures ?<< Are you saying the Catholic Church pulled the scripture they have out of thin air or what?

Are you affirming you do not have the the original Hebrew and Greek scriptures ?

>>Do you believe in the God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit ?<<
Not the one the Catholic Church portrays.

An antiCatholic platform can lead to heresy.

>>A simple yes or no would show good faith, so to speak.<<

No, it wouldn't show "good faith". The Catholic Church has proclaimed they serve the same god as the Muslims. I don't, The Catholic Church says Jesus is continually offered as a sacrifice. Scripture says "once for all". The Catholic Church says some people have more access to God than others. Scripture says all have the same access. The Catholic Church preaches "another gospel" so a true believer cannot answer a simple yes or no to a Catholic question about God.

If one were obsessed with hatred of all things Catholic, it could lead one to stumble and mistake and remake their personal vision of truth such that one chooses darkness instead of light, whether out of hatred, variance, and envy, or whether out of confusion, sin of another, or poor discipleship; such an unnecessary tragedy.

And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
First John, Catholic chapter one, in its entirety,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

[rwa265]

You have posted verses the you think say want you want per your understanding of the nature of of the man who is Jesus.

---

You must not have been fully awake when you wrote the above. I think what you intended to write was:

“You have posted verses that you think say what you want per your understanding of the nature of the man who is Jesus.”

My understanding of the nature of the man who is Jesus is this. God lowered Himself to become a human being in the person of Jesus Christ. And like any other human being, Jesus was made up of that which came from His mother and that which came from His Father. Like any other mother, Mary did not contribute what came from the Father. But also like any other mother, Mary was the mother of the person of Jesus, both the human nature that came from her and the divine nature that came from His Father.

This is how Scripture reveals to me that Mary is the mother of God incarnate. Not that His divinity is from her, but that she is the mother of the person who is the Word made flesh, i.e., God.

I can understand how you would disagree with the other Marian beliefs of the Catholic Church. But Mary as the mother of God incarnate is so Scriptural, that I can not grasp how it could be understood any other way. That’s why I keep referencing the infancy narratives.

Please show me how those verses could be interpreted differently. What is your understanding of the nature of the man who is Jesus? How in your mind could Mary be the mother of Jesus without being the mother of all that He was?

[rwa265]

You have posted verses that you think say what you want per your understanding of the nature of the man who is Jesus.

---

This is a good point. What is the nature of the man who is Jesus.

My understanding of the nature of the man who is Jesus is this. God lowered Himself to become a human being in the person of Jesus Christ. And like any other human being, Jesus was made up of that which came from His mother and that which came from His Father. Like any other mother, Mary did not contribute what came from the Father. But also like any other mother, Mary was the mother of the whole person of Jesus, of both what came from her and what came from the Father.

This is how Scripture reveals to me that Mary is the mother of God incarnate. Not that His divinity is from her, but that she is His mother in His divinity as well as His humanity.

I can understand how you would disagree with the other Marian beliefs of the Catholic Church. But Mary as the mother of God incarnate is so Scriptural, that I cannot grasp how it could be understood any other way. That’s why I keep referencing the infancy narratives.

For those of you who don’t agree with this, please explain how Scripture could be interpreted differently. What is your understanding of the nature of the man who is Jesus? How in your mind could Mary be the mother of Jesus without being the mother of all that He was?

[CynicalBear]

>>How in your mind could Mary be the mother of Jesus without being the mother of all that He was?<<

My fallible mind cannot in any way comprehend the full impact of the nature of Christ. I must therefore stay with what the Holy Spirit inspired to be written and not add to it or speculate. The angel Gabriel told them to name Him Jesus and the Holy Spirit inspired only the term "mother of Jesus". Neither Jesus nor the apostles taught the elevated status of Mary that the Catholics teach. In fact, she is totally ignored after Pentecost.

[edwinland]

Great comment! Though I think you were responding to someone else. You and I are in 100% agreement that Mary is truly the Mother of God.

495 Called in the Gospels "the mother of Jesus", Mary is acclaimed by Elizabeth, at the prompting of the Spirit and even before the birth of her son, as "the mother of my Lord".144 In fact, the One whom she conceived as man by the Holy Spirit, who truly became her Son according to the flesh, was none other than the Father's eternal Son, the second person of the Holy Trinity. Hence the Church confesses that Mary is truly "Mother of God" (Theotokos).

[StormPrepper]

So angels become people and people become angels.

Yes. An Angel is someone that has not received their final reward but is on God's errand.

God used to be a mortal man who was promoted into being eternal.

John 5:
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Jesus has done nothing that His Father hasn't done. What all did Jesus do again exactly?

You demote God to being one of many Gods...

Telling the truth is not demotion. God is still God. Since you have chosen to limit your knowledge of God, how do you claim to know the entirety of the family structure in heaven? It's like claiming to know everything about a lake because you have a glass of water.

That's the key heresy, all others are lesser IMHO.

The problem is that anything God chooses to reveal to you will be a "heresy" to you. This is the difference between worshiping the Bible vs worshiping God.

[DungeonMaster]

Telling the truth is not demotion. God is still God. Since you have chosen to limit your knowledge of God, how do you claim to know the entirety of the family structure in heaven? It's like claiming to know everything about a lake because you have a glass of water.

So God, who cannot lie, says He knows of no other God beside Him, but it's a lie. You claim that I limit my knowledge of God by not realizing that He is lying to me in the bible. So ya really want to go with that?