Posted on 03/15/2015 5:41:41 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
On September 11th 1683, Vienna was besieged by Islamic Ottoman Turks. Christians throughout Europe prayed the Rosary in the midst of a desperate situation. At Vienna, vastly outnumbered European Christian forces miraculously and wonderfully delivered a crippling blow to Muslim expansion into Europe, preventing a grim invasion of the continent by Muslim forces. 41,000 Christian forces (including 30,000 troops of Polish King Jan III Sobieski that Pope Innocent XI had called upon) defeated a 140,000 man strong Turkish army the night of September 11th over three centuries before the 9/11 attacks on the United States that were also caused by Islamic terrorism. September 12th, the day after the great victory of Christianity at Vienna, came to be known as the feast day of the Holy Name of Mary (a feast day that has been restored to us thanks to Pope John Paul the II doing so not long before he died.)
Over a century before, On October 7th, 1571, Christian Europe stood on the verge of collapse before the onslaught of a large Muslim navy fleet. The battle of Lepanto it was known as. Also widely recognized was our Lady’s intercession at that historic moment when Christianity’s European fate stood on the edge of a knife. When hopes were fading, the Admiral, one Andrea Doria, pleaded in his cabin before an image of Our Lady of Guadalupe, sent him by Archbishop Montufor of Mexico. In sending this image, the good Archbishop had been well foresighted in ascertaining the grave consequences of a potential defeat of Christianity on the high seas. Such a loss would likely mean that the waves of Islam would sweep Christendom away, changing dramatically the spiritual landscape and the course of history if it came to pass.
We are told that as the admiral prayed before the Guadalupe image, the tide turned against the Muslims, with winds literally changing directions unfavorably against them, and an encouraged Christian fleet triumphing over Islam that day, shattering two-thirds of the Muslim Navy, the 200 Christian Ship Navy magnificently overcoming the previously presumed unbeatable 300 ships. Also important to note is the fact that the Pope implored, and people indeed did, pray the Rosary to Mary, “Our Lady of Victory”. Ultimately, October the 7th came to be known as Our Lady of the Rosary, and the month of October dedicated to the Rosary.
For many years now, the miraculous image of Our Lady of Guadalupe, unpainted by human hands, the great mover in the mass conversion of the Aztecs to Christianity, has held many enthralled and brought so many to Christ. It seems likely, especially considering the Great Battle of Lepanto, that the quarter moon on which Mary stands in the miraculous Guadalupe image represented not only the Aztecs, but also the Muslims, each of which had as symbol that same quarter moon. Mary triumphs over both the Aztecs and the Muslims. Mary’s triumphs are for the defense of Christ’s Church, and for the conversion of all mankind to Christ. She sought to gather the Aztecs to her son. She wishes to do the same for the Muslims.
It may have been the beloved Archbishop Fulton Sheen that first inspired more serious consideration of the subject of the Blessed Virgin Mary and her relationship to Islam. In what I, and many, consider to be one of the best Catholic books of the 20th Century, The World’s First Love: Mary Mother of God, Archbishop Sheen devoted a chapter to this topic in his book titled “Mary and the Moslems”. In this chapter, his very words concerning the coming powerful rise of Islam were prophetic, but so too, it appears, were his reflections on the means to convert the hearts that beat for Islam.
In this regard, an encouraging characteristic of Islam is its devotion and honor to the Virgin Mary. Inarguably, there are errors and misconceptions with the Koran regarding Mary, including the false view that Christians worship Mary and consider her part of the Holy Trinity. On the other hand, Muslims do believe that Mary stands above all other women. Mohammed stated “Thou shalt be the most blessed of all the women in Paradise, after Mary”, speaking in reference to Fatima, his own daughter. And as for Fatima, that name should ring a bell to you.
You may recall that in the early 20th Century, in the 1917, the Virgin Mary appeared to three children in the small Portugese village of Fatima. The apparitions would go on to become Church approved, and Our Lady took on the title of Our Lady of Fatima. More than ironically, that very village of Fatima, once reigned over like so much of Portugal and Spain by Islam (recall that many were the onslaughts of Islam against Christian Europe through the Middle Ages, and that Europe did not always keep Islam completely at bay), was named after the daughter of the last of the Muslim chiefs who ruled over Portugal, she who in turn had been named after Mohammed's own daughter, Fatima. This chief’s daughter fell in love with a Catholic young man and converted to the Catholic Faith for him, staying behind in a Portugal reclaimed for Catholicism whilst Islam had finally been banished from the southwestern coasts of Europe.
This is all fascinating because, given the Muslims already warm reception of Mary, her now title of “Our Lady of Fatima” was sure to, and has been, an effective mechanism in relations with Islam, with Muslim nations embracing the devotion to Mary under this title in many regards. With God there are no coincidences.
It is widely recognized that Muslims are exceptionally difficult to convert to Christianity, but it has become clear in recent decades to at least some theologians that the way home to the hearts of the Muslims is through the heart of Christ Jesus’ Mother, Mary, whom they already have a soft spot for. As Mary prepared the world for, and brought us our Savior, so she can, and it is the belief of many Christians that she will ultimately bring the Muslims to Jesus. Though Muslims refuse to believe that Jesus is himself God, As Archbishop Fulton Sheen points out to us, “The Moslems should be prepared to acknowledge that, if Fatima [Mohammed’s daughter] must give way in honor to the Blessed Mother, it is because she is different from all the other mothers of the world and that without Christ she would be nothing.”
It thus appears that Muslims will come to Christ not through a direct encounter and conversion, but gradually, through our encouraging and fostering their devotion to Christ’s Mother. We know that the Blessed Virgin Mary always points us towards, carries us to, and forms us in Christ. At a time when Hellish and cruel Islamic terrorist attacks rage against Christians, we have cause to pause and reflect on the fact that the Holy Spirit is working gently through Mary’s hands to establish a peaceful, beautiful widespread conversion of the Muslim people that some in the past and today consider an incredibly unlikely feat to achieve. But I hope they will recall that momentous day when the Angel Gabriel, in Luke Chapter 1:37, announced to Mary just before she gave her assent to become the Mother of God, “For with God, nothing will be impossible.” The time will come when the Muslim people, gazing at Mary lovingly and devotedly, shall look upon her as did the servants at the Wedding Feast of Cana once also looked upon her when she said to them regarding her son, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, “Do whatever he tells you” (John 2:5), and following her direction, they will follow Christ and she shall triumph over the quarter moon of Islam, and even for the converted Muslims, remembrance of the watery waves of Lepanto shall be turned into the wine of gladness recalling the victory of Mary for her Son, their Lord Jesus.
That Mary is dead, is a Protestant heresy.
Mary as deity is anti-Christian
sound like just another store front denomination sprung up by some preacher based on his own warped idea of what Christianity means...sometime in the 1930's.......
Indeed! Mysterious to them too!
It is sobering that before they convert, they know it may mean death. The link to Iran Alive has video of Muslims with all their despair coming to Christ - recorded as it happened. They also have online chat rooms to answer questions and lead them to Christ.
I encourage you to watch them.
OUR LADY AND ISLAM: HEAVEN’S PEACE PLAN
Fr. Ladis J. Cizik, Blue Army National Executive Director
http://www.ewtn.com/library/mary/olislam.htm
The Rosary
At Lepanto, the Victory over the Moslems was won by the faithful praying the Rosary. Even though they had superior numbers, the Turks really were overmatched. Blessed Padre Pio, the Spiritual Father of the Blue Army, said: “The Rosary is the weapon,” and how right he was!
The Battle of Lepanto was at first celebrated liturgically as “Our Lady of Victory.” Later, the feast of October 7th was renamed “Our Lady of the Rosary” and extended throughout the Universal Church by Pope Clement XI in 1716 (who canonized Pope Pius V in 1712).
Thanks for the reminder about Poland’s role at the Seige of Vienna.
I couldn’t help but be reminded of barky’s demeaning comment about Poland. A lot of Freepers chalked it up to his stupidity, but I have to wonder if it’s yet another example of his pattern of hate of everything Christian / love of everything Islam...
Well actually, all of Protestantism is a heresy. As the brilliant English essayist Hillaire Belloc puts it, unlike other heresies, “Protestantism spawned a cluster of heresies” Everyone and their grandmother gets to interpret Scripture (books that were assembled by the early Church Fathers in AD 382).
Thus you can attend any of the for foursquare Protestant Churches in a city block and each of them depending on who is the pastor/pastoress will offer their own interpretation of Scripture. Eventually, a congregant can migrate from one First Baptist etc to the another First Calvary etc until he/she finds what is most comfortable with his/her beliefs and thus finally settles at First Emmnuel.
In short, we have as many beliefs as there are people who think they can crack open the pages of the Bible and offer their own brand of nonsensical interpretations such as the likes of the Billy Grahams, Joel Osteens, Rev. Jeremiah Wrights, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Cleflo Dollar; Jimmy Swagger, Benny Hinn, the Moonies etc.
I wonder sometime why these folks don’t simply get their “own” Bible and give it their “own” confusing and conflicting interpretation.
Of course, there are then those pre-eminent Lutheran and other such Episcopalian theologians and scholars who have seen the light of day and converted to Catholicism. The rest of the untutored Bible Christians keep wallowing in the shallow end of the theological pool. Take them to the deep end and they drown. Thus, like the Appalachian “Christian” snake handlers, the works of Augustine, Aquinas, Newman and Benedict all go over their head.
LOL. As Ronnie Reagan would say, there you go again. Yes the INC founder, Felix Manalo, an angel and his church, started a bad cult. He definitely had warped ideas in his mind. I love those others from the 30s, however, even though I haven't seen any of them since the 80s. They are great. God bless them for the wonderful work they do. 😇🙈🙉🙊
Jesus is the way, truth and light. Noone gets to heaven except through HIM. Praying to Mary or Saints is worthless and unchristian. Worshipping the church itself is just stupid.
That's a broad brush you are employing, friend. Moses quoted God describing Himself as "the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob," and the commentary of Our Lord answering the Sadducees (as reliably reported by Mark) was "He is God not of the dead, but of the living"
Isn't the central issue whether the Mother of Jesus physically ascended into Heaven?
Though I have questions on that particular point, this is not a stumbling block for me, with regard to determining the truth or untruth of Marian apparitions, for example, though I understand it's a huge issue for many.
Thanks for showing us you have no clue what you are talking about in regards to what the early Church Fathers, some of them who knew the Apostles themselves have written. We all know that Bible Christianity is so shallow that a paper boat will get beached but this shallow? A good place to start is to consult those eminent Lutheran theologians who converted to Catholicism after a lifetime of serious study, writing, teaching, and preaching.
You confuse intercessory prayer with Jesus as mediator on account of Him being God-Man But this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for “[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16).
As the following passages show, the early Church Fathers responsible for confirming the authenticity of God’s Word and assembling the books in the Bible (I am sure you know the Books in the Bible did not fall from the skies) not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life.
Here’s a very small sample.
Hermas
“[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’” (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).
Clement of Alexandria
“In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]” (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).
Origen
“But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep” (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).
Cyprian of Carthage
“Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy” (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).
“Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins” (funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s in Rome [A.D. 300]).
“Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days” (ibid.).
“Mother of God, [listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger” (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]).
Just wanted to clear up something here. Mary did not ascend into Heaven. She was assumed into Heaven. The former implies that she ascended like Christ. The latter required God's doing (ie. she didn't do it herself).
Steelfish...
It is certainly an interesting post of historical references.
What you don’t have is anything in the Bible - God’s Inspired Words - that:
Teaches us to pray to departed people
Teaches us to pray to angels
Commands us to pray to departed people or angels
Demonstrates a Christian praying to departed people or angels
Encourages us to pray to departed people or angels.
Heck, there is no evidence that a departed person can even hear you address them, assuming they are in heaven.
Against that we have all the commands to pray to the Father. To approach Him BOLDLY.
Hermes is from the Second Century. It was never included in the Canon because it is not inspired.
From there, your non-inspired selections get farther from the truth.
No one disputes that after centuries all kinds of things were added to what the Church taught. Your quotes progressively demonstrate that.
The truth is that praying to departed saints is completely made up and not part of the Apostles Tradition. There is no evidence that an Apostle every did such a thing.
Yes, your denomination teaches it and encourages it and individuals like [presumably] yourself like it, but it isn’t from God.
Bump
Thank you for the inquiry.
There is scriptural reference for inter-cessionary prayer. For example, John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
In Acts of the Apostles 3: 6 we have the account of Peter in healing the lame beggar
“And he began to give them his attention, expecting to receive something from them. But Peter said, “I do not possess silver and gold, but what I do have I give to you: In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene— walk!” And seizing him by the right hand, he raised him up; and immediately his feet and his ankles were strengthened.…”
Peter here was an intercessor.
Further, you cannot discount John 21:25 “And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which if they were written one by one, I suppose that not even the world itself would contain the books written.”
These unwritten words and acts of Christ did not disappear into the ether. They were part of the received oral tradition of the Church. Thus one should not with a wave of the hand dismiss the works of Hermes etc whose writings are a part of serious theological and historical scholarship.
St. Paul in his letters also warns the faithful to hold fast to the tradition they received: “We command you, brothers, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to avoid any brother who wanders from the straight path and does not follow the tradition you received from us” (2 Th 3, 6)
Jesus said his Church would be “the light of the world.” He then noted that “a city set on a hill cannot be hid” (Matt. 5:14).
This means his Church is a visible organization. It must have characteristics that clearly identify it and that distinguish it from other churches. Jesus promised, “I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:18). This means that his Church will never be destroyed and will never fall away from him. His Church will survive until his return.
Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054.
The Protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today’s Protestant churches are actually offshoots of the original Protestant offshoots.)
Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing. The line of popes can be traced back, in unbroken succession, to Peter himself. This is unequaled by any institution in history.
Finally, one must also have to engage in a willing suspension of disbelief of the numerous scientifically documented miracles (some of them still living) attributed to inter-cessionary prayer.
Please prove from an infallible source that what the Catholic Church today calls tradition is exactly what the apostles called tradition.
Infallibility belongs to the Pope (Vicar of Christ) and the body of bishops as a whole, when, in doctrinal unity with the pope, they solemnly teach a doctrine as true.
We have this from Jesus himself, who promised the apostles and their successors the bishops, the magisterium of the Church: “He who hears you hears me” (Luke 10:16), and “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven” (Matt. 18:18).
“There is scriptural reference for inter-cessionary prayer. For example, John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.”
..... There is no evidence anywhere in the passage that the Elders were prayed to by the people on earth. It just shows the prayers of saints being presented as incense to God.
“And he began to give them his attention, expecting to receive something from them. But Peter said, “I do not possess silver and gold, but what I do have I give to you: In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene— walk!” And seizing him by the right hand, he raised him up; and immediately his feet and his ankles were strengthened.…” Peter here was an intercessor.
..... Please. You are really trying to spin straw into gold. Peter and the beggar were both on earth, both physically alive. No one had departed.
“Further, you cannot discount John 21:25 “And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which if they were written one by one, I suppose that not even the world itself would contain the books written.”
..... That passage means nothing in regards to this conversation. It provides no support. Yes, he did MANY things. GOD chose NOT to include them in Holy Writ. Yet we see HIS inspired words that everything we need for salvation and maturity are included in Holy Writ.
“These unwritten words and acts of Christ did not disappear into the ether. They were part of the received oral tradition of the Church. Thus one should not with a wave of the hand dismiss the works of Hermes etc whose writings are a part of serious theological and historical scholarship.”
..... THAT is simply an assumption with no evidence to support it before 100 AD. Hermes is from somewhere around 140 AD.
“St. Paul in his letters also warns the faithful to hold fast to the tradition they received: “We command you, brothers, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to avoid any brother who wanders from the straight path and does not follow the tradition you received from us” (2 Th 3, 6)”
..... There is NO LIST of traditions. It does not exist, does it? If it did, you would have it. You seem to be grasping at straws that MAY be a loophole. Yet we have no record of the other things Christ did and no record of any list of traditions. Nor do we see an Apostle or Christian writing about or modeling praying to departed saints or angels.
“Jesus said his Church would be “the light of the world.” He then noted that “a city set on a hill cannot be hid” (Matt. 5:14).
..... Well, no Christ says YOU are a light. Not the Church. Nor does this passage say or support praying to departed saints.
“Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus.”
That in itself means nothing. God has not a single grandchild. Only children. Age of an organization has nothing to do with truth. Nor does this lend support to praying to departed saints.
“Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church.”
..... Every believer is chosen and saved in a direct relationship with Christ. Every believer becomes baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ. Every believer becomes part of the Bride of Christ. Immediately.
“The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054.”
..... I don’t think they would describe it that way, but it doesn’t matter in this conversation. That event has nothing to do with praying to departed saints.
“The Protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today’s Protestant churches are actually offshoots of the original Protestant offshoots.)”
..... Every group of believes is directly related to Him and can organize itself as a local expression of the Universal Body of Christ. Again, nothing to do with praying to departed saints.
“Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing. The line of popes can be traced back, in unbroken succession, to Peter himself. This is unequaled by any institution in history.”
... Again, nothing to do with Scripture supporting praying to departed saints. Also, while you believe what you just wrote, it isn’t historical. It is so much fluff.
“Finally, one must also have to engage in a willing suspension of disbelief of the numerous scientifically documented miracles (some of them still living) attributed to inter-cessionary prayer.”
..... Attribution is always an opinion.
..... In short, you have not provided any Scriptural support for this practice that crept into the church in later centuries. That is to be expected. As I pointed out upthread, there simply isn’t any.
Best.
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