[aMorePerfectUnion]

“There is scriptural reference for inter-cessionary prayer. For example, John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.”

..... There is no evidence anywhere in the passage that the Elders were prayed to by the people on earth. It just shows the prayers of saints being presented as incense to God.

“And he began to give them his attention, expecting to receive something from them. But Peter said, “I do not possess silver and gold, but what I do have I give to you: In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene— walk!” And seizing him by the right hand, he raised him up; and immediately his feet and his ankles were strengthened.…” Peter here was an intercessor.

..... Please. You are really trying to spin straw into gold. Peter and the beggar were both on earth, both physically alive. No one had departed.

“Further, you cannot discount John 21:25 “And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which if they were written one by one, I suppose that not even the world itself would contain the books written.”

..... That passage means nothing in regards to this conversation. It provides no support. Yes, he did MANY things. GOD chose NOT to include them in Holy Writ. Yet we see HIS inspired words that everything we need for salvation and maturity are included in Holy Writ.

“These unwritten words and acts of Christ did not disappear into the ether. They were part of the received oral tradition of the Church. Thus one should not with a wave of the hand dismiss the works of Hermes etc whose writings are a part of serious theological and historical scholarship.”

..... THAT is simply an assumption with no evidence to support it before 100 AD. Hermes is from somewhere around 140 AD.

“St. Paul in his letters also warns the faithful to hold fast to the tradition they received: “We command you, brothers, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to avoid any brother who wanders from the straight path and does not follow the tradition you received from us” (2 Th 3, 6)”

..... There is NO LIST of traditions. It does not exist, does it? If it did, you would have it. You seem to be grasping at straws that MAY be a loophole. Yet we have no record of the other things Christ did and no record of any list of traditions. Nor do we see an Apostle or Christian writing about or modeling praying to departed saints or angels.

“Jesus said his Church would be “the light of the world.” He then noted that “a city set on a hill cannot be hid” (Matt. 5:14).

..... Well, no Christ says YOU are a light. Not the Church. Nor does this passage say or support praying to departed saints.

“Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus.”

That in itself means nothing. God has not a single grandchild. Only children. Age of an organization has nothing to do with truth. Nor does this lend support to praying to departed saints.

“Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church.”

..... Every believer is chosen and saved in a direct relationship with Christ. Every believer becomes baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ. Every believer becomes part of the Bride of Christ. Immediately.

“The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054.”

..... I don’t think they would describe it that way, but it doesn’t matter in this conversation. That event has nothing to do with praying to departed saints.

“The Protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today’s Protestant churches are actually offshoots of the original Protestant offshoots.)”

..... Every group of believes is directly related to Him and can organize itself as a local expression of the Universal Body of Christ. Again, nothing to do with praying to departed saints.

“Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing. The line of popes can be traced back, in unbroken succession, to Peter himself. This is unequaled by any institution in history.”

... Again, nothing to do with Scripture supporting praying to departed saints. Also, while you believe what you just wrote, it isn’t historical. It is so much fluff.

“Finally, one must also have to engage in a willing suspension of disbelief of the numerous scientifically documented miracles (some of them still living) attributed to inter-cessionary prayer.”

..... Attribution is always an opinion.

..... In short, you have not provided any Scriptural support for this practice that crept into the church in later centuries. That is to be expected. As I pointed out upthread, there simply isn’t any.

Best.

[Steelfish]

But these kinds of conclusionary opinions are of little value.
Here are a few examples

(1) “..... Please. You are really trying to spin straw into gold. Peter and the beggar were both on earth, both physically alive. No one had departed.”

Note the inherent illogic here. Thus by your lights Peter’s inter-cessionary powers vanish as soon as he is dead!! While Peter was alive, the crippled beggar could not have obtained his recovery by direct prayer to God.

Onto another absurdity:

(2) “GOD chose NOT to include them in Holy Writ.” Who told you this? John says they could simply not all have all be written down. So your reason contradicts what John provides us? This becomes interesting. It may well be reasonably inferred that John is saying that followers of Christ not depend only on what was written down.

(3) .. There is no evidence anywhere in the passage that the Elders were prayed to by the people on earth. It just shows the prayers of saints being presented as incense to God.

But this is in contradiction to what you wrote on (1) above. Incense in the old Testament was always seen as a form of prayers rising to God.

(4) “No list of traditions”
This is beyond absurd. Christ established a Church, so that His Church will carry out faithfully the oral traditions of the day. Since when should all this be written down when John in 21: 25 explicitly states that many things Chirst said and did were not written down.