Posted on 03/07/2015 2:48:45 PM PST by RaceBannon
“can spar using scripture with your best here, using only the Bible, if the truths of the Bible defended Roman Catholicism”
You mean that Catholic document known as the Bible, or is there another one I’m not familiar with.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
These people sat directly under the apostle Paul, yet Paul said they would go into error, and that right soon. And we are to suppose, based on Irenaeus' claim, that it is not possible he could have missed the boat somewhere?
I know people that trust Irenaeus - and all the ECF - explicitly because of such claims of succession. Not me. I'll stick with the scriptures, than you. Great post, Race. I've bookmarked it.
Christ was born under the law. He was sinless. One of the major sins he did not commit was dishonor his mother because he was sinless. Remember honor your mother and father. If he had no mother we got no Christ the redeemer. One of the Ten Commandments. He was born of a woman in his deity intact if not you have a John 4 antichrist. We have to watch what we say. Truly amazing when people declare Christ in his divinity had no mother other wise we have an antichrist.
Galations 4: " God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 in order to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as children. 6 And because you are children, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our[b] hearts, crying, “Abba![c] Father!” 7 So you are no longer a slave but a child, and if a child then also an heir, through God"
1 John 4
Testing the Spirits
4 "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits[a] to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist, of which you heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already. 4 Little children, you are of God, and have overcome them; for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are of the world, therefore what they say is of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error"
" born of the flesh" means born of a human mother . The spirit of God in Jesus was born in the flesh by a woman. His mother. He has to always honor his mother not worship her as long as he is the redeemer in flesh. We always honor Mary not worship her. God came first no one is before him and when he became man he had a mother. All "bets" are off if you want to continue in your path of no mother of God. 1John 4 .
The sacraments are the work of God. Yet if you studied the Bible as you claim you would know this.
Would you believe Peter instead?
2Pet 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pet 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pet 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
There is no such document
After all, of the 66 Books of the Bible, 37 were kept by faithful Jews.
The remaining, were written by...wait for it...faithful Jews
and kept and copied by...faithful Jews AND Gentiles who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.
If you think God let sinful men decide what was in the book, then you are genuinely thinking your false religion is equal to God
you quoted it wrong
you said holy catholic apostolic church
The article said, “the foundation of apostasy that produced Romanism and Greek Orthodoxy.”
Quite a difference, I am surprised you didnt pick up on that...
False, I quoted it, or you, correctly, in italics and then commented on it, sans italics, with my perception of the weak link in his, or your, line of argment. You must believe in a 1500 (or perhaps 2000) conspiracy theory against the holy catholic apostolic church, that they destroyed your true history, at the same time you believe they preserved and delivered the holy scriptures to you without corruption, which is cognitive dissonance.
From my post 35, bolded for emphasis in case your eyes are weak.
Therefore, the “church fathers” are actually the fathers of the Roman Catholic Church. They are the men who laid the foundation of apostasy that produced Romanism and Greek Orthodoxy.
And thus your witness confirms, unwittingly, the holy catholic apostolic church. The argument that said church engaged in a 1500 year conspiracy to destroy true history but shepherded and transmitted the holy scriptures is cognitive dissonance and thereby rejected.
False, I quoted it, or you, correctly, in italics and then commented on it, sans italics, with my perception of the weak link in his, or your, line of argment. You must believe in a 1500 (or perhaps 2000) conspiracy theory against the holy catholic apostolic church, that they destroyed your true history, at the same time you believe they preserved and delivered the holy scriptures to you without corruption, which is cognitive dissonance.
From my post 35, bolded for emphasis in case your eyes are weak.
Therefore, the “church fathers” are actually the fathers of the Roman Catholic Church. They are the men who laid the foundation of apostasy that produced Romanism and Greek Orthodoxy.
And thus your witness confirms, unwittingly, the holy catholic apostolic church. The argument that said church engaged in a 1500 year conspiracy to destroy true history but shepherded and transmitted the holy scriptures is cognitive dissonance and thereby rejected.
Amen to that.
The point I was trying to make in post 43 was, and apparently didn’t do a very good job, was, per Acts 20:29,30, if men would arise among the church at Ephesus after Paul left them, who would teach things contrary to what Paul taught (”perverse things”), which would likely happen in a relatively short time after he left, what then of the ECF who taught a hundred, two hundred, three hundred years AFTER Paul?
It is folly to put one’s trust anywhere but in the source, Paul and the rest of the New Testament writers. As many do with the ECF, especially the RCC. Why trust in an alleged “succession,” when we have the apostles themselves?
Out of all the threads I have read here on the RF, that deal with the RCC, theirs just dilly dally around, yours really gets to the heart of the matter. The only one to do so, in my opinion.
Christ warned against building your house upon sand and not on the rock . ...the rock of scripture (these sayings of mine, Matt. 7:24). These men coming hundreds of years after the apostles, an alleged “succession,” is that “sand.”
Oh, my eyes arent weak at all
But, the false argument that these men are the FATHERS of the Church, that is what is weak
These men are fathers of apostasy, of error
Jesus ALONE is the foundation of the Church
My apologies :)
I am too lazy sometimes to give complete answers, and I am the one who started all these types of threads 15 years ago, maybe 16
I also started the creation/evolution threads, so, I am tired
That is why I dont respond with detail like I used to.
People are going to believe or they arent.
I will let them down, copy and paste, the Bible study.
If they do, they will be blessed if they actually pray, fill it out, and contemplate what it is teaching, with their Bible open at the same time.
That is all I can do, expose people to the truth, I cant make them believe.
Patently false, sans the eyes perhaps When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Matthew, Catholic chapter sixteen, Protestant verses thirteen to nineteen,
Ephesians, Catholic chapter two, Protestant verses nineteen to twenty two,
Matthew, Catholic chapter eleven, Protestant verses thirteen to twenty two, as authorized, but not authored, by King James
The Jewish Apostles and Prophets, with Messiah the chief cornerstone, are the foundation of the one holy catholic apostolic church.
Even Paul said JESUS was our foundation
1Cor 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Cor 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
The work of Jesus Christ is more important than that of any man
Especially when Peter is NOT the rock Jesus spoke of, the TRUTH THAT JESUS IS THE MESSIAH, THE SON OF GOD, is that rock
No, it is not, and the tendency to "think of men above that which is written," (1Cor. 4:6) in elevating tradition (even to falsely claiming this "faith which has been believed everywhere, always, by all" - Vincent of Lérins, c. 434), resulted in perpetuation of errors under the premise of perpetual magisterial infallibility.
Which is itself a product of itself, for Rome has presumed to infallibly declare she is and will be perpetually infallible whenever she speaks in accordance with her infallibly defined (scope and subject-based) formula, which renders her declaration that she is infallible, to be infallible, as well as all else she accordingly declares.
However, as with "Trail of Blood" and other like Polemics, Cloud, whom i have some respect for, presents such men as Vigilantius, Jovinian, and Helvidius and the "Bible-believing Donatists" as dissenters without stating that such typically men held other Catholic errors or believed in things both sides hold as heretical.
To which can be added Montanists, Novatianists, Donatists, Paulicians, Albigensians, Catharists, Waldenses.
The church has and will overcome the gates of Hell, but the church is the body of Christ as it alone wholly consists 100% of believers, unlike its visible bodies in which they, as well as tares, express what they believe.
And just as God often provided and preserved faith by raising up men from without the seat of power, as well as by wise overseers, and which is how the church began, then so has faith and the church been preserved.
I have already shown you, from the scriptures, that Jesus is the Messiah, and that he is the chief cornerstone of the foundation of the one holy catholic church. Jesus was speaking to Cephas, and not to you. Paul was writing to the Ephesians. Denying Ephesians and acceding to Corinthians is an unprofitabletradition.
As for Corinthians, the Apostle to the Gentiles is dealing with carnal and contentious souls and has to remind them there is one holy catholic apostolic church, founded on the Messiah, and that each saint is a temple of the Spirit of God, and that each saint can only have one foundation, the Messiah, followed by works by which he will be judged. You cannot repeal the foundation in Ephesians with that in Corinthians. And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
First Corinthians, Catholic chapter three, in its entirety, as authorized by, but not authored, King James
Thanks for posting. What career did Hadji decide on?
Roger that.
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