Posted on 10/28/2014 5:23:04 AM PDT by Colofornian
The so-called 'premortal' world Mormons claim they had as alien spirits on a distant planet, supposedly located near the star they call "Kolob":
Joseph Fielding Smith, 10th "prophet" of the Mormon Church:
"Before the foundations of this earth were laid, WE were ALL in the presence of the Father as spiritual children. Lucifer was one of us..." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr., Religious Truths Defined: A comparison of Religious Faiths with the Restored Gospel, Bookcraft, Salt Lake City, p. 67, 1959/1962)
Mormon seminary/institute instructor John K. Challis contributed a chapter to a Salt Lake City published book in 1993 (Aspen Books; title: Riches of Eternity). Challis' chapter title was: "The Reality of Satan." Allow me to quote directly from Challis (pp. 37-38 of book), who himself highlighted the word "after" in the following excerpt:
"In two of the four published recitals of the First Vision (the 1835 account and the 1838 account, which is now JS-H:1:5-20), the attack of a powerful 'unseen' being is recorded... His glorious theophany came AFTER his being seized and overcome for a time by Satan. The attack was a powerful one. Joseph said in 1835 that my toung [sic] seemed to be swolen [sic] in my mouth, so that I could not utter, I heard a noise behind me like some person walking towards me, I strove again to pray, but could not, the noise of walking seemed to draw nearer, I suprung up on my feet,...and looked around, but saw no person or thing."
The citation of what Smith reported was footnoted as coming from Dean C. Jessee, compiler and editor, The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith (Deseret Book Co, 1984, p. 75. (Note: Deseret Book Company is owned by the Mormon Church)
Challis added: "In his 1838 recital of the events, Joseph spoke of a 'thick darkness' gathering around him and said that it seemed for a time he was 'doomed to sudden destruction' (JS-H 1:15)." (p. 138)
Lds "apostle" Mark E. Petersen, speaking at one of the bi-annual Conferences the Salt Lake City Mormon church hosts for its entire church, April, 1952:
"And then read of his [Joseph Smith's] visits with...Moroni, a personage who came back from the dead and ministered to Joseph Smith, gave him direction, and helped him in the production of the Book of Mormon." (Lds "apostle" Mark E. Petersen, Conference Reports, April 1952, pp. 106-107).
Note: As a BYU history professor at the time, Quinn earlier authored the book: Early Mormonism and the Magic World View
Per Pratt's 1853 sermon excerpts:
Excerpt A:
Who communicated with our great Prophet, and revealed through him as a medium, the ancient history of a hemisphere, and the records of the ancient dead? Moroni, who had lived upon the earth 1400 years before....Who revealed to him the plan of redemption, and of exaltation for the dead who had died without the Gospel and the keys and preparations necessary for holy and perpetual converse with Jesus Christ, and with the spirits of just men made perfect?...Those from the dead!...Shall we, then, deny the principle, the philosophy, the fact of communication between worlds? No! verily no! Editors, statesmen, philosophers, priests, and lawyers, as well as the common people, began to advocate the principle of converse with the dead, by visions, DIVINATION, clairvoyance, knocking, and writing mediums, etc., etc. This spiritual philosophy of converse with the dead, once established by the labors, toils, sufferings, and martyrdom of its modern founders, and now embraced by a large portion of the learned world, show a triumph more rapid and complete — a victory more extensive, than has ever been achieved in the same length of time in our world.
Source: GOD-MEN AND SPIRITUAL VEGETABLES: The Occult Worldview of Mormonism
[Please note: The above isn't very surprising given that the very Mormon "scriptures" say that The primary focus of the Mormon church is on serving the dead! (Doctrine & Covenants 128:15; 138:27)]
Excerpt B: Pratt claimed that the very purpose of Mormon temples included:
Ye are assembled...and have laid these Corner Stones, for the express purpose that the living might hear from the dead, and that we may prepare a holy sanctuary, where "the people may seek unto their God, for the living to hear from the dead"...
Excerpt C: Pratt claimed that the spiritism culture of the 1840s and 1850s was introduced by Joseph Smith
(the) "spiritual philosophy of the present age" (spiritism had been introduced in the U.S. about five years prior) "was introduced to the modern world by Joseph Smith." And, he claimed, the real reason that Smith was killed was because Smith acted as "a medium of communication with the invisible world,whereby the living could hear from the dead."
[Yes, you heard it first from Mitt Romney's G-G grandfather -- 161 years ago during the emphasis on occultism within Mormon history...which also coincides with its April start date as a "church." (see 15 occultic and controversial facts you may want to know about Lds temples [Vanity] for documentation on this]
Excerpt D: Pratt emphasized how Smith served as a 'medium':
"ONE OF THE LEADING OR FUNDAMENTAL TRUTHS OF 'MORMON' PHILOSOPHY, viz. - 'That the living may hear from the dead' commenced thru Smith acting as a "medium." + "..How do the Saints expect the necessary information by which to complete the ministrations for the salvation and exaltation of their friends who have died? By one holding the keys of the oracles of God [allegedly a Mormon prophet], as a medium through which the living can hear from the dead."
For more on this sermon, see: Journal of Discourses/Vol 2/Spiritual Communication [The OTHER World Series: Lds discourse w/dead]
It would be “easy” to conclude that modern-day Mormonism has shed such “medium” vocabulary. That would be a false assumption.
The Salt Lake City-based Mormon church routinely produces massive curricula documents for their high school seminary and college Institute coursework. The course manual published in 1978-1979 for their Religion 211-212 requirements included this note on p.418 of The Life and Teachings of Jesus & His Apostles: "'Speak by inspiration, not of yourself, but simply as a MEDIUM through whom the mind and will of the Lord is revealed..." (Bruce McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, vol. 3, p. 317) .
For documentation, see:
* 19th century occultic Mormon phenomena: Paranormal intermingling, demonic possession [Vanity]
* They See Dead People? (The OTHER World Series - LDS & Temple Hauntings)
* Lds Temple Haunted? Did Declaration of Independence signers appear as ghosts to leader? [Vanity]
See:
* 19th century occultic Mormon phenomena: Paranormal intermingling, demonic possession [Vanity]
In fact, after the above was posted last year, I came across a few other examples of evil spirits "hanging out" with future Lds "prophets" (like Lorenzo Snow, a "prophet" of the 1890s who served as an Lds missionary in England in the 1840s:
"As they had with other church leaders, evil spirits sought to confound Lorenzo [Snow] in his efforts. One night in his London apartment, he was awakened by loud noises. 'It seemed as though every piece of furniture in the room was put in motion, back and forth against each other in such terrible fury that sleep and rest were utter impossibilities.' Accompanying the commotion was an oppressive feeling that filled the whole room. The disturbance came again the next night, and several more nights after that..." (The Presidents of the Church: Biographical Essays, by Heidi S. Swinton, 1986 Deseret Book Co, 1986, p. 154...Deseret Book Company is owned by the Mormon Church).
Another prominent Lds general authority of the 1950s and 1960s – Hugh B. Brown -- serving as one of the top three-ranked Mormon leaders from 1961-1970 after being designated an "apostle" in the 1950s, described how an attack by demonic entities was intertwined with his call to be a church leader:
"We were in Canada. I was...an attorney for an oil company and manager of it...I drove to the city of Edmonton...I went into the bedroom alone and there, through the night, I had the most terrible battle with the powers of the adversary. I wanted to destroy myself. Not in the sense of suicide; but something within me was impelling me to wish that I could cease to be...It was terrible. The blackness was so thick you could feel it. Sister Brown came in later in the night, toward morning in fact, wanting to know what was the matter. And when she closed the door, she said, 'What's in this room?' And I said, 'Nothing but the power of the devil is in this room...That night at 10:00 o'clock, October 1953 – the telephone rang. Sister Brown answered. She called me and said, 'Salt Lake's calling,' and I wondered who could be calling me from that far away. I took the phone and said, 'Hello.' This is David O. McKay calling. The Lord wants you to give the balance of your life to Him and His Church..." (The Life & Teachings of Jesus & His Apostles, Course Manual Religion 211-212, 2nd edition 1978-1979, p. 133).
toot toot
I still stand with my Christian brothers in the Mormon faith.
It requires more than fat shorts to diguise who you are and what you are trying to accomplish.
who said my shorts are fat ???
who said Mormons are Christians ???
If understand them correctly The Church pretty much agrees with all that you reported upon and is proud of it. They may see some of the things in a little different light or perhaps use a little different wording, more flattering wording but pretty much means the same thing.
To Mormons a just God would not let people who have never heard the word of God be sentenced to Hell for eternity. This is one thing I find fascinating about the Mormon religion.
I do believe in life after death, I haven’t a clue what it is though. While I don’t know what it is I think the way the Mormons see it looks pretty interesting. Nobody else talks much about it, it is either Heaven or Hell and if you don’t confess Jesus Christ as Savior then it is Hell. I think the Mormon theology offers a little hope to those who have never heard the name of Jesus Christ. If God is our Father and He does love us then I think He would provide a way of salvation to all His children and not depend on the luck of the draw.
Elsie did you know that the off shoot of Mormons in Salt lake City, Utah have sent food and supplies to Sierra Leone ???
No, no silly not to the Ebola victims...to the Mormons there..
the people of the city have to do a stay-at-home quarantine..
theyre not suppose to leave their homes and mingle..
but not to worry..down at the Mormon pagan temple or religious building the dead dunkings and live dunkings continue...
after all the Mormons are speshall dontcha know..
of course that means they DO leave their homes..
and get in the water together to do the “temple work” stuff..
but that’s what those magic undies are for..
to protect them from Ebola...
Ah, JA, I highlighted the phrase above which contained the most irony in the context of what you stated. Why does it qualify as such?
Simple...you attempt to make a case for universal salvation in which God the Father would somehow ensure His children find His way back into His presence, which you mistakenly equate to what Mormonism teaches!
They teach anything but that!
My proof? From Mormonism's own "scriptures" & general authorities layout of Mormon doctrine?
Well, two years ago I ran a vanity entitled, THE TOP TEN MOST SURPRISING 'MORMON TEACHINGS' ABOUT MORMON HEAVEN and AFTER-LIFE [Vanity]
So what, JA, do ya think qualified as #1 on that list??? (Perhaps you need to have a convo with your wife's bishop about these quotes below, eh?)
| 1. | Mormon theology about heaven says it's a place -- at least for the 99% of people who would live there -- where Christians don't get to live with Heavenly Father forever!!!!! | When Mormons talk about eternal life & exaltation, they're not just talking about "heaven" What's the "rest of the story"? * Mormons believe that only their “Melchizedek priests” (D&C 76:57) are the ones eligible for “dwell[ing] in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.” (D&C 76:62) In the Mormon view of heaven, ONLY those entering into Mormon "covenants" and obeying fully Mormon laws get to live forever in God's presence: * Eternal life is living with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ in the celestial kingdom. This blessing--which is also called exaltation--comes only to those who keep the commandments and make the necessary covenants (Source: Preparing for Exaltation Teacher's Manual, p. 4, 1998) * ”Immortality is to live forever as a resurrected being. Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, everyone will receive this gift. Eternal life, or exaltation, is to inherit a place in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, where we will live in God’s presence and continue as families.” (same source, p. 52) * “’Eternal life’ is a higher state than immortality alone and means to live forever in a resurrected condition in the presence of God, and to become like God…Eternal life is exaltation into the type and quality of life that God lives. Receiving eternal life is conditional, predicated upon obedience to the fullness of gospel law and ordinances (D&C 29:43-44; 130:20-21). It requires voluntary obedience to all of the ordinances and principles of the gospel…continuing through…the covenants of the Endowment and marriage in the temple…” (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 2:677-678) |
So do you comprehend what I'm saying...?
You commend Mormonism for somehow finding a way for all to be reunited with Heavenly Father -- ALL as Mormonism teaches that...
...nobody EXCEPT MARRIED temple Mormons who keep ALL of the covenants & commandments of Mormonism will get to live forever in Heavenly Father's presence!
Oh, sure the "middle degree of glory" people can live forever with the Mormon Jesus. But the lower degree of glory...most of the people you are likely referencing with your comments above, JA, are actually people who per Mormonism wouldn't get to live forever with either Heavenly Father or Jesus!!!!
Even the most faithful Mormons...if they ain't married...or the most faithful non-Mormon Christians...are, per Mormonism (see chart above0 excluded from the Mormon Father's presence forever!!!! (And you deem that heaven??? Really?)
Sorry, JA, but if you fail to be reconciled to HEAVENLY FATHER & JESUS -- that is not "Heaven" -- no matter how much Mormon lore says so!!!
Do you realize that only about 15% of ALL Mormons will be able to be with God the Father in the afterlife?
Don't you think that figure is a bit low; considering all you know about Mormonism?
Oh?
How is this different than what the Bible states?
Romans 2:12
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
It seems that you need to do a wee bit MORE than that...
They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.Who has made this so?Have I?Have this people?Have the world?No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.Can you pass without his inspection?No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?
--JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224
Mormonism really doesn't HAVE a 'hell'.
AFTERLIFE: The Mormon afterlife is divided up into four levels. From the lowest to the highest they are: hell, and then three levels of heaven: the telestial, the terrestrial, and the place where God dwells, the celestial (also called the kingdom of God). The celestial is also divided, the highest level being "exaltation," or becoming a God.
HEAVEN-The Mormon church teaches there are three levels of heaven (three "degrees of glory"):
HELL: A place of torment from which the worst of sinners are resurrected (if they repent) into the Telestial kingdom; only a limited number remain in hell forever, - the devil and the demons and apostates who consciously reject and work against Mormonism.
Mormonism has taught that those in the Telestial kingdom will have paid for their own sins in spirit prison, a temporary hell which serves as a place of purging before entrance into heaven (cf. D&C 138: 58-59).
Orson F. Whitney preached:
"But those who reject the Gospel altogether and are besotted and crimestained---what of them? It is written that they will be thrust down to hell; even the murderer, the liar, the sorcerer, and the whoremonger. They will, in short, be damned. But they will only be damned to the extent justified by their sins. Even for them there is hope, after they have 'paid the uttermost farthing.' They will be punished, as all men must be, for neglect of duty, for transgression of the laws of God; but after they have been punished sufficiently, they will be brought forth and saved in a glory of which the stars in heaven are typical." ("The Three Great Teachers", May 8, 1898; Brian H. Stuy, ed., Collected Discourses 1886-1898, v. 5)
Chapter 41 of the 2009 Gospel Principles manual quotes D&C 19 and concurs the same:
"Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, 'Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit' (D&C 19:16-18). After suffering in full for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom" (Gospel Principles, 2009, p. 244).
Mormonism really doesn't HAVE a 'hell'.
"Now, it may be contended that a judgment, with some degree of salvation for all, encourages the sinner to pursue his dark ways. Not so. However generous the judgment, it is measured by our works. Our punishment will be the heavy regret that we might have received a greater reward, a higher kingdom, had our lives conformed more nearly to truth. Such remorse may yield keener pain than physical torture." (Understandable Religion, p. 89)
While Widtsoe is careful not to call a heavenly kingdom "hell", he is nonetheless certain that there will be a keen regret for lost opportunities:
"Humanity will be grouped according to their works in three main divisions: Celestial (like the sun), Telestial (like the moon), Terrestrial (like the earth). Within each group there will be many gradations and divisions, until from the lowest to the highest in all groups there will be a series of gradually ascending glories. There can be no talk of a hell, except for the few 'sons of Perdition,' but undoubtedly the regret for lost opportunities will be keen among those in the lower degrees of glory." (Program of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 226)
Joseph Fielding Smith, on the other hand, considers the tormenting regret experienced in the bottom two heavenly kingdoms and concludes "in that sense it will be hell":
"This earth will become a celestial kingdom when it is sanctified. Those who enter the terrestrial kingdom will have to go to some other sphere which will be prepared for them. Those who enter the telestial kingdom, likewise will have to go to some earth which is prepared for them, and there will be another place which is hell where the devil and those who are punished to go with him will dwell. Of course, those who enter the telestial kingdom, and those who enter the terrestrial kingdom will have the eternal punishment which will come to them in knowing that they might, if they had kept the commandments of the Lord, have returned to his presence as his sons and his daughters. This will be a torment to them, and in that sense it will be hell." (Answers to Gospel Questions, v. 2, p. 210)
This line of thinking is interesting in light of Joseph Smith's following teaching:
"A man is his own tormenter and his own condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone. The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone" (TPJS, p. 357)
The entry in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism on "Damnation" essentially explains that the bottom two kingdoms of heaven are kingdoms of damnation:
"Just as there are varying degrees and types of salvation, coupled with eternal progression in some areas (D&C 76:96-98; 131:1-4), so are there varying degrees and types of damnation. In LDS doctrine, to be damned means to be stopped, blocked, or limited in one's progress. Individuals are damned whenever they are prevented from reaching their full potential as children of God. Damnation is falling short of what one might have enjoyed if one had received and been faithful to the whole law of the gospel. In this sense, all who do not achieve the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom are damned, even though they are saved in some degree of glory."
This would be what we Christians call Dead Dunking: the Mormon practice of being proxy 'baptised' for the dead, whose NAME is invoked in the ritual.
Supposedly the dead person then has a CHANCE to accept Christ as savior.
In actuality, there are MILLIONS of dead people whose name will NEVER be known; thus the Mormon practice is quite limited.
A strange way to try and ‘expose’ Mormonism, when what is mentioned here is found in the Bible.
There are plenty of episodes mentioned in the New Testament where evil spirits tormented various people, and Jesus cast them out.
As far as people coming back from the dead, we know that Jesus did — and also after his resurrection:
“The graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.” (Matthew 27:52-53)
I wouldn’t consider that occult — it’s part of the miraculous power of the resurrection.
J; do YOU confess Jesus Christ as Lord?
Norm!
Long time no see!
OH?
Just WHERE, in the bible, do you find THIS?
"Before the foundations of this earth were laid, WE were ALL in the presence of the Father as spiritual children. Lucifer was one of us..." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr., Religious Truths Defined: A comparison of Religious Faiths with the Restored Gospel, Bookcraft, Salt Lake City, p. 67, 1959/1962)
And you used an apt word ...tormented
The tormented were not...at least at the time...people who were themselves possessed by the Holy Spirit as temples of the Holy Spirit (Paul's reference to true Christians in 1 Cor; 2 Cor.)
True Christ ones can't be possessed by both the Holy Spirit and an evil spirit simultaneously
Was the apostle Paul consistently annoyed by a possessed person in the book of Acts? Yes...but mere annoyance who Paul cast out with authority was not the same as either being spiritually tormented or possessed. And Paul exercised complete spiritual authority there
As far as I can read in the OT, Job was physically struck by Satan...yet Job had no benefit of the Holy Spirit indwelling him in an ongoing way...certainly until Christ came and died for us, when the Holy Spirit came upon some in OT times it wasn't a permanent ongoing "residency"...
Paul talks about being afflicted:
“And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.” (2 Corinthians 12:7)
You have a valid point.
Pride, a foundation for all evil acts, is what drives these threads.
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