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well, it seems like dispensationalists are a little uncomfortable when their beliefs are taken to their logical conclusions. before I explain this in a way even a third grader can understand, I first want to say I assume dispensationalists actually believe what they say and teach.

ok, here are major tenants of dispensationalism which we need to focus on to prove my statement:

1. the Bible is true and is to be believed. ( we can all agree on this )
2. the Bible is to be interpreted literally. no allegorizing or spiritualizing of verses like Origen or Augustine.
3. the Church is not Israel.
4. the Jews are Israel.
5. everywhere in the NT when it mentions Israel, it means the Jews or Jewish nation and never the Church.
6. God is fulfilling prophecy by bringing the Jewish people back to the land He promised them.
7. the country in the Middle East called Israel is there as a result of God being faithful in keeping his promises.
8. all means all. all does not mean 15%, 53% or 78%. all means 100%
9. Romans 11:26 “and so all Israel will be saved” is literally true.

I don’t think you can find anyone who calls them self a “dispensationalist” who would/could deny any of those nine tenants or principles listed above.

now, here is where logic comes in and the dispensationalist gets nervous.

we all know Jews who have lived and died knowing of Jesus Christ, knowing Christians teach He is the promised Messiah, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, and these Jews died utterly rejecting Jesus and the Christian Faith. they wanted nothing to do with it. in fact, in the country in the Middle East called Israel, I dare say 99% of the citizens also utterly reject Jesus, some in fact are very hostile to Christians.
BUT ACCORDING TO DISPENSATIONALISTS, THESE PEOPLE ARE ISRAEL. Further, Romans 11 says ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED.

logically then if they are saved and they rejected Jesus and His offer of salvation:

THEY MUST HAVE A DIIFERENT PATH TO SALVATION THAN JESUS CHRIST.

own it dispensationalists, its your teaching.

it is a foreign to Christianity as other 19th century novel teaching, Mormonism, 7th day Adventism, Church of Christ, JEHOVAH Witnesses, Christian Science,etc.

Well, once again you reveal how little you really "know".

>>2. the Bible is to be interpreted literally. no allegorizing or spiritualizing of verses like Origen or Augustine.<<

That must be a construct of your attempts to discredit the those you disagree with due to some serious flaws in your self azsurrance of what you believe. Jesus is not a literal door nor is He a literal lamb. So you see, your premises is already flawed.≤p> >>8. all means all. all does not mean 15%, 53% or 78%. all means 100%<<

Once again wrong as we will see in your next point.

>>9. Romans 11:26 “and so all Israel will be saved” is literally true.<<

During this age of grace it matters not what nationality a person is as far as salvation is concerned. And no indication is given in scripture as to the destiny of each individual who is of Israelie decent. "All of Israel" could well mean that representative members of all of the tribes will be saved as the 12,000 from each tribe would indicate.

>>I don’t think you can find anyone who calls them self a “dispensationalist” who would/could deny any of those nine tenants or principles listed above.<<

I just showed you how what you think has little or no basis in reality. I am a "dispensationalist" and don't believe in your erroneous list. The rest of you post is based on your errors listed so is and should be disregarded as the rantings of one who has convinced no one of his grasp of the subject. Trying to project what you hope others believe in hopes to denegrate those beliefs isn't working well for you nor is it enhancing your credibility.

You were presented the scriptures from Romans as provided by Iscool.

Your beef is with Paul not premil presentation of the Scriptures.

In the Scriptures provided in Romans your theory that Israel=100% Church is refuted. Because how could the church be an enemy of itself.

On your enumeration I would agree with 1-3 and 4 if you substitute Hebrew people.

#5 begs the question as clearly Paul tells us the elect of the church are grafted in. And agreeing with God’s bond servant Paul God is not finished with Israel.

#6 very possible. We shall find out. Could be or a yet far future event. It’s not dogmatic. Show me those who claim such.

#7 at the least IMO a beginning of gathering. It is a secular state no professing Christ as Lord and Savior. Pieces being put together for larger prophecy fulfillment. See Paul again Romans 9-12.

#8-10 you beg the questions again. So as to fit your stereotype. Paul stated all Israel will be saved. Not redleghunter, Iscool or Walvoord (he’s the author of the series if you had not read). It was Paul and as such Paul knew the Hebrew scriptures quite well from what I know. Better than us. He knew YHWH always kept a faithful remnant.

So your reasoning is flawed. Pick up the Bible and read these articles if you truly want to converse on these threads.

now, here is where logic comes in and the dispensationalist gets nervous.

NOW THERE YOU GO AGAIN!!! THINKING!!! That's your downfall...

If you would read (and believe) what the scriptures say instead of worrying about your catechism, you'd learn something about God...

While Israel rejected Jesus, they are still looking for the Messiah...That seems to escape you...

THEY MUST HAVE A DIIFERENT PATH TO SALVATION THAN JESUS CHRIST.

AGAIN, salvation can only be thru Jesus Christ...So your false accusation falls flat on its face, AGAIN...However, what Israel WILL have is 'not' a different path to salvation but a different path to Jesus...They WILL have a new covenant...A covenant just for Israel...

So let's try this again...Instead of trying to focus on 'gotcha' words, why not just read it and see what it says...And of course it would help tremendously if you something of what the rest of the bible says...

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Do you realize Paul is talking abut Jesus taking away THEIR sins, NOT yours???

And of course that means ALL of Jacob...Living, or dead, or both??? We can be certain it pertains to ALL of Israel who are alive when this covenant takes place...To focus on whether it means all who are living or all in history is just straining at gnats to shift the focus of the message to try to prove there is an error...

Jer 31:20 Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD.

Jer 31:8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
Jer 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
Jer 31:10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

What is intriguing about that last verse is that the Catholic religion shows Israel no mercy whatsoever...Of course the mercy comes from God but it would seem we should 'pay it ahead' to Israel...

What is your net worth, measured monetarily ?

dated 2006, but it gives one a ballpark figure with which to compare To be among the richest 10% of adults in the world required US$61,000 in assets, and more than US$500,000 was needed to belong to the richest 1%

I ask, not for an answer but, to demonstrate how one has not kept the words of Jesus and how there is no visible path into the kingdom of God for such a rich man, however otherwise obedient to the Gospel. Yet there is a way not visible to men.

16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. 23Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

"All the doctrinal decisions of the church are binding on a Catholic, including the Second Vatican Council and all its texts," Cardinal Koch said when asked if the SSPX would be expected to accept all the teachings of Vatican II. "The 'Nostra Aetate' declaration of the Second Vatican Council is a clear decree and is important for every Catholic," he added. ...
While Catholics profess that, in the end, all salvation will be accomplished through Jesus Christ, "it does not necessarily follow that the Jews are excluded from God's salvation because they do not believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah of Israel and the son of God," the cardinal said. "That the Jews are participants in God's salvation is theologically unquestionable, but how that can be possible without confessing Christ explicitly is and remains an unfathomable divine mystery."