Posted on 08/24/2014 3:18:46 AM PDT by markomalley
How many times is Peter’s name in the Bible compared with ALL the other 12 apostles?
LOL, SOS re:Luther. Would that you paid attention to him in general, not just when you dust him off for this out of context statement from a sermon.
I’m glad you mentioned Theodosius.
The Roman Emperor Theodosius established the Roman Catholic Church in 380 AD and set about eliminating every other branch of Christianity.
bump
So for Catholics Christ isn't around today? "Wherever two or three are gathered in my name there I am in the midst of them" means nothing to Catholics? How about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Is that just hyperbole?
Beyond that He is reproving the love of titles, and uses hyperbole to do so. In so doing the Lord is not rejecting calling any man father, or even one referring to himself as being a father in the spiritual sense, as Paul did to Timothy, "my own son in the faith," (1Tim. 1:2; cf. 1 Cor. 4:17) and Corinthians, "for I have begotten you through the gospel." (1 Cor. 4:15)
Nor is calling one a master forbidden, which slaves are enjoined to obey, but it is the love of titles such as seen in Rome that is censured, in which, besides distinctively titling clergy "priests" contrary to Scripture, they are all supposed to be called "father" even by those they have not begotten through the gospel, which they do not do anyways, being in need of conversion themselves.
But Most Rev. Dr. Henry Edward Cardinal Manning, Lord Archbishop of Westminster, states "The only Divine evidence to us of what was primitive is the witness and voice of the Church at this hour." - he Temporal Mission of the Holy Ghost: Or Reason and Revelation
Well done and Amen!
Other RCs disagree with as much certitude. Such is an example of the interpretive disagreement seen among RCs.
And so (if this statement is to have any real weight) your argument is that being the historical instruments and stewards of Divine revelation (oral and written) means that such is the assuredly infallible magisterium. Thus those who dissent from the latter are in rebellion to God?
Affirm or deny.
Good question, and so the most occurrences means primacy, and the least means least important.
So what is your count, not counting duplicate accounts of course.
Not according to scripture. Peter was "A" leader-not "THE" leader. And nowhere in scripture is anyone referred to as "Pope".
Is the Pope your actual father or your spiritual father? It's all about context.
Ping!
daniel212:
The disagreement is among laity, who really are doing nothing but getting a tit for tat for nothing. It might be debated among a few theologians but even then, I have not heard much theological debate on that question amongst theologians as well. Those who are validly baptized are indeed Christian, while being deficient in terms of holding the completeness of Apostolic Catholic orthodox faith. What I am citing is essence what Officially the Catholic Church teaches. Disagreements among Catholics here on this site, or on other sites, who make themselves more Catholic than the Pope is in reality people who think too much of themselves. In that sense, they are behaving in some sense like your Protestant cohort.
Being Catholic, I am not at all familiar with the bible, so I can’t offhand cite the scripture where Jesus called himself ‘the rock’. I do know that He did call Peter the rock on which he would build his church.
How do you explain without personally interpreting Christ’s words exactly what he meant by ‘rock’ and why it would be different for his description of himself and Peter? And why would your interpretation that these were different meanings of the word ‘rock’ be any more valid than someone else taking them to mean the same thing?
If Christ’s meaning for Peter to be the foundation and leader of the Church was to be limited to Peter and not his successors, what was to happen to the church after Peter died? Is it supposed to go on with no chosen leaders? Or to die with Peter? If the Christ-named ‘foundation’ wasn’t the best person to guide the church to find the leaders God wanted, who was?
O2
Thanks, daniel, enlightening.
Here is the Greek, that the Bible was written in.
Peter – rock Matthew 16:18 - http://bible.cc/matthew/16-18.htm
Jesus said that Peter was *petros*(masculine) and that on this *petra*(feminine) He would build His church.
Greek: 4074 Pétros (a masculine noun) – properly, a stone (pebble), such as a small rock found along a pathway. 4074 /Pétros (”small stone”) then stands in contrast to 4073 /pétra (”cliff, boulder,” Abbott-Smith).
“4074 (Pétros) is an isolated rock and 4073 (pétra) is a cliff” (TDNT, 3, 100). “4074 (Pétros) always means a stone . . . such as a man may throw, . . . versus 4073 (pétra), a projecting rock, cliff” (S. Zodhiates, Dict).
4073 pétra (a feminine noun) – “a mass of connected rock,” which is distinct from 4074 (Pétros) which is “a detached stone or boulder” (A-S). 4073 (pétra) is a “solid or native rock, rising up through the earth” (Souter) – a huge mass of rock (a boulder), such as a projecting cliff.
4073 (petra) is “a projecting rock, cliff (feminine noun) . . . 4074 (petros, the masculine form) however is a stone . . . such as a man might throw” (S. Zodhiates, Dict).
It’s also a strange way to word the sentence that He would call Peter a rock and say that on this I will build my church instead of *on you* as would be grammatically correct in talking to a person.
There is no support from the original Greek that Peter was to be the rock on which Jesus said he would build His church. The nouns are not the same, one being masculine and the other being feminine. They denote different objects.
Being Catholic, I am not at all familiar with the bible,
I would encourage you to correct the situation and become familiar with the Bible.
Regarding “How do you explain without personally interpreting Christ’s words exactly what he meant .........”
If you did more reading you would find that Jesus said very often, “Let those who have ears hear” Now what does that mean? You would find that very often the disciples didn’t hear and had to ask Jesus later what He meant.
IT IS OK TO ASK IF WE DON’T KNOW. WE DON’T RELY ON OUR OWN UNDESTANDING, (nor do we rely completely on the understanding of others or tradition)
So now what do we do? Jesus isn’t here to answer our questions. IT turns out the quote continued on in the Bible after Jesus left, BUT IT CHANGED A LITTLE.
Rev_2:7 “Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what He is saying
Jesus left the Holy Spirit behind to answer our questions. but it appears we still have to ask for explanations. AND WE WILL GET THEM, that is promised.
As to building the church on this rock. The answer I get is that the rock was not PETER, but the faith that Peter had. The church would be built on people who had that kind of faith...........................
By the way, Pro_20:12 Ears to hear and eyes to see—both are gifts from the LORD. (sometimes we have to open the gift)
It's not a man because CHRIST is the foundation stone on which He built His church.
Even Peter says so.
1 Peter 2:2-8 Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation—if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good. As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture:
“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,
“The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,”
and
“A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.”
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do
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