Posted on 08/24/2014 3:18:46 AM PDT by markomalley
Paul condemned himself too.
Peter was still the head of the apostles.
The keys signify authority.
Christ knew he wouldn’t be around (and alive) so he passed that authority to Peter and the line of Popes.
Your tag line is beautiful.
The Stone that the builders rejected has become the chief corner stone. The LORD has done this and it is marvelous in our eyes!
John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
So there has never been a real problem with those who belong to God identifying the true words of God. Is it really all that significant that some centuries-late johnny-come-lately clerics finally caught up with the consensus of the church at large?
As for the assertion we should not call earthy leaders "father," that is an assertion of Jesus. Your correspondent is merely repeating it. If you say you follow Christ, we assume that means you follow His teachings. If this is what He teaches, the burden is on you to explain why you do not either believe this is what He's really teaching, or else why it somehow no longer applies.
So, no earthly "papa" means ... wait for it .. no earthy "papa." Can you say why that isn't so?
Peace,
SR
Paul makes the case for his apostleship vis a vis Peter’s by highlighting the impartiality of God (never mind Rome!). “Those men”—including Peter—”added nothing” to Paul. In fact they gave him the right hand of fellowship. The other apostles—including Peter—were those “who seemed to be pillars”. God is no respecter of persons!
You people strain out a gnat and swallow a camel...
Nonsense.
Unity is by being in Christ and through the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 5:23-24 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.
Ephesians 1:15-23 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.
Colossians 1:9-20 And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
Christ is the head of the church and nobody needs a *visible* person to follow because Christ dwells in our hearts through faith.
We walk by faith, not by sight.
Interesting how the very words of Jesus, which some claim they so highly esteem, are brushed off and explained away, when it doesn't fit those same people's religiosity.
Matthew 23:1-12 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others. But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
It's the job of the Holy Spirit in us to strengthen us.
No man can get inside of me and strengthen me, but the Holy Spirit who lives in me can and does.
**respecter**??
For your information, God respects each and every person, even the babies killed in the womb.
Are you trying to put all Catholics in one strainer? Won’t work.
Take it in context.
Jesus is clearly talking about calling religious leaders by the title *Father*.
Additionally, the argument doesn't hold water because even if everyone around the world disobeys the command and calls their father *Father* of Dad, or Abba, or whatever, how does that justify the church and Catholics disobeying the clear command of Jesus?
Everyone else is wrong and sins, so we can too? No big deal?
Did Jesus tell us not to call religious leaders *Father * or not? Then how does one excuse, or justify, disobedience?
And just for kicks and giggles, just what would you propose a child call his male parent?
Hey you? Sir? Husband of my mother? Male Parental Unit?
God does not respect one above another.
Get with the program.
It was not that hard to understand and did not need twisting to make it seem like aveni said something he didn't.r
**God does not respect one above another. **
That’s what I am saying. God respect everyone. He created everyone.
The premise is not simply a that a visible head is essential, but one that uniquely possesses assured infallibility, to whom all the church looks to as its supreme exalted leader and magistrate as the first in a line of such.
Which as said, simply not seen in the NT, whose leadership was that of manifestly God-ordained apostles, plural, in distinct obvious contrast to that of Rome.
But in addition to what has been said already, while looking to a visible head as supreme, versus Scripture is conducive to unity, the problem is that it more easily leads to unity in error, taking the problem of errant personal interpretation to a corporate level.
Presuming what an SS adherent cannot, the pope can decree Truth by fiat, even that Mary was bodily assumed into Heaven, which is not seen in Scripture, and even lacks early testimony in tradition, and was already crowned and has the uniquely Divine ability to hear incessant multitudinous prayers addressed to her, which is contrary to what Scripture shows and teaches, besides other sanctioned excessive attributions to Mary, thinking of mortals "above that which is written." (1Cor. 4:6)
In addition, as RC teaching if often open to varying degrees of interpretation, the flock looks to the pope and lesser prelates for interpretation, which can be contrary to each other.
In one century obedience to the pope can require torture the physical extermination of theological dissidents, while in another torture is stated to be intrinsically evil.
And in one century remaining in the bosom of the RC church is necessary for salvation, with submission to the pope being infallibly and unequivocally decreed as a requirement, while in another century properly baptized Prots are affirmed to be born again brethren. More .
And as such statements are manifestly interpretive, and as faith is known by what it does, (Ja. 2:18) thus RCs understand what their church teaches by looking to how the current teachers apply it (unless they are to rely upon their fallible human reasoning, contrary to what RC leaders effectually teach) .
And l which thus leads to the current pope and his manifest interpretation of past teaching. But which results in division among RCs, as using their fallible human reasoning which they reject Prots for using, conservative camps of RCs assert the very popes RCs tell us to look to as being contrary to what is really RC teaching.
In the light of which RCs will resort to the "only when infallible" clause, but again, just what is assuredly infallible (which is not even the arguments behind an infallible teaching) and its meaning is open to some degree of interpretation. Thus even here we have RCs affirming conservative baptized Prots as brethren, while others deny they have the Spirit and are part of the body of Christ, as they see this as contrary to past RC teaching.
The RC polemic you respond to here relies on miscontruance of both the RC and SS position. The RC simply argues "a visible pope in claiming the anointing of the Holy Spirit and thus the ability to properly interpret Scripture," thus anyone else who claims to be able to properly interpret Scripture is a pope.
However, this means no one can properly interpret Scripture except the pope, which even for Rome is an untenable position. Instead what the RC is asserting is the assured veracity based upon conferred personal anointing, therefore no one's interpretation can contradict such a one, which is not what an SS adherent is claiming.
For what Rome has presumed to infallibly declare is that she is and will be perpetually infallible whenever she speaks in accordance with her infallibly defined (scope and subject-based) formula, which renders her declaration that she is infallible, to be infallible, as well as all else she accordingly declares.
In contrast, the church actually began in dissent from those who sat in the seat of Moses over Israel, who were the historical instruments and stewards of Scripture, and inheritors of promises of Divine guidance, presence and perpetuation. (Lv. 10:11; Dt. 4:31; 17:8-13; Is. 41:10, Ps. 89:33,34)
And instead they followed an itinerant Preacher whom the magisterium rejected, and whom the Messiah reproved by Scripture as being supreme, (Mk. 7:2-16) and established His Truth claims upon scriptural substantiation in word and in power, as did the early church as it began upon this basis. (Mt. 22:23-45; Lk. 24:27,44; Jn. 5:36,39; Acts 2:14-35; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 12:12, etc.)
Unity under this means is much harder than under the cultic means of sola ecclesia, but superior in quality, as it requires establishing Truth claims upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power, and continually manifesting that the church is that of the living God, being grounded in and supporting the Truth, which Scripture uniquely assuredly is.
Sometimes I lash out. “Zeal for your house will consume me.” But is it true zeal or zeal “not according to knowledge”? I pray it is the former.
I am no angry former Catholic with an axe to grind, it’s just that I want to “destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,” Rome and her labyrinthine additions to the Glad Tidings angers me in this! Her ersatz anathemas have no effect on true believers who are justified apart from works, just as our father Abraham “believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness”.
So your argument is that an assuredly (if conditionally) infallible magisterium is essential for determination and assurance of Truth (including writings and men being of God) and to fulfill promises of Divine presence, providence of Truth, and preservation of faith, and authority.
And that being the historical instruments and stewards of Divine revelation (oral and written) means that Rome is that assuredly infallible magisterium. Thus those who dissent from the latter are in rebellion to God.?
daniel212:
I would say schismatic in most cases and in many cases hold to objective heretical opinions, but given that Heretic is defined very precisely as a post baptismal rejection of a Doctrine of the Catholic Faith, a 500 year removed Protestant from his or her Catholic ancestors can’t be charged with the sin of schism or heresy of their ancestors. That is also a heretical to make such a claim.
Msg. Pope’s homily solidly lays out the Catholic position, of which I, as many others here hold to, you don’t hold to it. So be it.
SUCH a boring and well-worn counter argument - one which never has held water.
Our dads are the original image YHWH gave us to teach us what HE is - Without having a father, without seeing a father, the term would mean nothing.
That others would usurp this most powerful image should be expected, as it is the height of patriarchal authority (real authority) - 'The Strong Man of the House' (what 'father' means, a man in his prime), or the ultimate wisdom of the human father (the grandfather, how ever many removed, only makes them all the wiser) - That some would abscond with these very honorable things to increase their gaudy plumage is predictable, but such as these should never be listened to, as one who requires such plumage, it turns out, can be no 'father' at all. For if he must pluck the title from someone else, it inherently shows he did not possess it naturally.
And the Holy Spirit even listed Peter after James, and as one of 3 "who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:)," “who seemed to be pillars,” meaning they apparently were true apostles, refuting authenticity assured by ordination, and regardless of the esteem of men and the external, God accepts no man's person, "that God is not influenced in His judgment by a regard to the rank, or wealth, or external condition of anyone. Its particular meaning here is, that the authority of the apostles was not to be measured by their external rank, or by the measure of reputation." (Gill)
Paul elsewhere warns against "thinking of men "above that which is written," (1Cor. 4:6) that being Scripture, and that,
But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power. For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness? (1 Corinthians 4:19-21)
Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. (2 Corinthians 12:12)
Under which the NT church saw its degree of unity, and which attestation is much in contrast to the false apostles of Rome and many others.
You people strain out a gnat and swallow a camel...
They strain out Scripture which teaches faith in the gospel of grace being how hearts are purified by faith, and spiritual and eternal life given, and instead swallow a wafer and wine as giving this.
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