mixed up in those words may have been an condiction..
Hey, Nobodys perfect..
Posted on 06/17/2014 6:17:41 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
Whenever I engage in conversation with people I meet for the first time I try to avoid being asked the question, “What do you do for a living?” But if I am asked I say, “I am a minister.” Generally, the one who asks then inquires, “What denomination?” or “What kind of church?”
Here is where I always have to clarify, depending on the most recent news headline involving Christian leaders: “I am a Baptist minister, but I am not a science-denying Baptist minister who thinks that dinosaurs lived alongside humans a few thousand years ago.”
What a strange irony that a 30-foot-long fossil of an Allosaurus will be on display at the Creation Museum in Petersburg, Ky., where museum founder, Ken Ham, recently debated science educator Bill Nye. Ken Ham and his colleagues think it defends the book of Genesis and supplies evidence of Noah’s flood. Good grief.
Unfortunately, this is real life, not a Charlie Brown cartoon. According to a recent survey by the Associated Press, 77 percent of people who claim to be born again or evangelical say they have little or no confidence that the universe began 13.8 billion years ago with a big bang. And 76 percent of evangelicals doubt that life on Earth, including human beings, evolved through a process of natural selection.
Educated evangelicals know better. According to Newsweek 99 percent of America’s earth and life scientists hold to some form of evolution. Darrel Falk, a biology professor at evangelical Point Loma Nazarene University, told Cathy Grossman of the Religion News Service, that many biblical (evangelical) scholars do not see a conflict between religion and science. He noted: “The story of the cosmos and the Big Bang of creation is not inconsistent with the message of Genesis 1.”
I suspect that many (if not most) educated evangelical biblical scholars who subscribe to some form of biblical inerrancy (and sign faith statements testifying to that fact) believe what professor Falk believes.
They know there are different kinds (genres) of biblical literature which call for different approaches other than a literal interpretation of the text. They know that the creation stories are parabolic in nature and are not chronicles of history or reports conveying scientific data. They know that these stories are spiritual, metaphorical and theological stories and, while not factual, they certainly teach truth about God and God’s relationship to the world.
They know Ken Ham’s claim that “no apparent, perceived, or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the Scriptural record” is utter foolishness.
Harvard theologian Harvey Cox tells about the time the student leader of Harvard’s atheist group on campus took one of his theology classes. This otherwise bright student wrote a very weak paper in which he sought to discredit the God of the Christian and Jewish faiths by attacking and dismantling a literal interpretation of the Genesis flood story. He thought that by proving the story could not have happened the way the story says it happened, he would thus disprove the reality of God.
Dr. Cox said to the student, “Don’t you know a story when you read one?”
Educated evangelicals know that the creation stories were never intended to be history lessons or science reports, because the Bible is not a history or science book.
Educated evangelicals also know:
• That evangelical Christians need not fear or deny the enormous amount of scientific data supporting evolution.
• That the story of evolution and the biblical story are not mutually exclusive.
• That a healthy faith welcomes and is informed by science.
So why do so many evangelicals deny evolution and believe in a literal interpretation of the creation stories in Genesis?
Apparently what educated evangelical professors know and believe is not getting down to the people in the pew.
Why aren’t educated evangelical pastors teaching their churches these things? Are they afraid of being shunned or looked down upon by their peers? Are they afraid to rock the evangelical boat? Are they afraid of facing conflict in their churches or losing their jobs? Are the professors actually teaching what they believe and know to their students?
Whatever the reasons, it’s time for evangelicals who know the truth to come out and proclaim the truth. If the truth sets us free, as Jesus said, then many of our evangelical sisters and brothers need to hear a liberating word from their pastors.
OPINION: Views expressed in ABPnews/Herald columns and commentaries are solely those of the authors.
Chuck Queen is pastor of Immanuel Baptist Church in Frankfort, Ky., and author of Being a Progressive Christian (is not) for Dummies (nor for know-it-alls): An Evolution of Faith.
Is being born again.... EVOLUTION!?.... survival of the fittest?.. Intelligent design?...
i.e. development, enlargement, evolvement, expansion, growth, increase, maturation, progress, progression, unfolding, unrolling, working out ....
Not history lessons? Genesis says it is telling the story of earth up to the time of Joseph.
So, this "Baptist evangelical' pastor would have you believe that Genesis is not historical and not scientific but it is parabolic. In short, that means that creation isn't true, the fall isn't true, God's interventions in Genesis aren't true, and none of the details in Genesis are true.
He does say that evolution is true.
So, the creator who didn't create sent his son for a problem that didn't exist to a world that was humming along as happenstance came about.
Wonderful. /sarc
I would say that "conversion" or "being born again" or, "spiritual re-birth"is as close to the exact opposite of "evolution" as a example can get.
Salvation is the result of one of the most "un-natural" and unique and non-repeatable events ever observed by humankind: the willful, loving self-sacrifice of the Very Son of God, Jesus Christ. How much more "non-Darwinian" can you get...?
~~~~~~~~
If, OTOH, you are referring to the changes that take place in the life and spirit of one who "has been born again", during maturation of the "new-born" Christian", again, I would say,
If there ever were a perfect example of of a "guided process" (as opposed to a 'random, 'drunkard's walk' progression [aka "evolution"], I would state unequivocally that maturation of a truly "re-born" believer is that case.
Bottom line: as one who has invented and developed hyper-sensitive measurement instrumentation, I can conceive of no physico/chemicical/biological phenomenon that is available as detectable, measurable evidence of the experience of being "born again" or of the spiritual maturation of the resulting Christian.
"Evolution"?
Divine, miraculous Providence?
~~~~~~~~~~~~
If the doctor's building to which I now depart has wi-fi, I may "rejoin, revise, and extend" this dialogue. Otherwise, I'll check back this evening -- in hopes of seeing wisdom and additional testimony displayed here in response to your query...
• It is an "instantaneous step-function" change -- not a gradual process.Perhaps 'phase shift' might fit as a better way of expressing the change which happens with Conversion/Salvation. After all, we humans have been imbued with something not found in other creatures of God's Creating; we have a spirit, into which God's level of Life through the Holy Spirit enters into the Created, living thing, accomplishing what Jesus said He came to accomplish, give us Life more abundantly.• It relies on no known "natural" process or law; it is fully "miraculous" and totally beyond scientific explanation.
• It is attributable only to a Divine and miraculous act of God through his Son, Jesus Christ.
• It is also the result of conscious acts of decision of the human will: conscious and deliberate rejection of past sins, and acceptance of the almighty, saving Grace of Almighty God.
•[...I expect that others (who have personal experience of salvation) can and may add several further insights to this list...]
God is not willing that any be lost, but some will by their choice of belief or non-belief not allow this 'phase shift' to happen to them and will be lost to the life which is coming in greater fullness, greater abundance.
This phase shift via individual choice should not startle modern humans since Physics has shown that even the observer effects the outcome merely by observing.
So, I see.. "being born again" is NOT being born again it's a metaphor for some type of miracle.. or change in carnality.. confirmed by abilty to read the bible.. and follow it rote.. conflated by baptism or death of the old man?..
I might have you wrong but I don't believe it's that complicated..
I thought you wanted the Christian experience of being "born again" and our subsequent "re-growth" to be compared to "evolution".
Now, I have no idea what you wanted...
Well ...WYSIWYG...
It would seem that it is YOU who are adding in non-critical-path "works" as requirements into what IS a simple process...
Just asked a question.. at least you responded to the question..
I've been around(as they say).. out of @100 people I get 100 answers..
Yours was quite detailed.. compared to most..
If being "born again" is a very personal thing.. 100 answers would confirm authentic (probably)honest responses..
Scientifically deengineering the "born again" saga may be hubris..
it is possible being born again is deprogramming "you" to understand who you really are...
After all humans are/or have spirits.. and are not carnal at all.. (biblically)
When every sense and experience you have seems to convince "ONE" they are carnal/fleshly.. from the moment of birth..
Convincing "them" they are not carnal at all but spirits could take some doing..
Jesus walking on unfrozen water may have been an object lesson... to that extent..
My point is that deprogramming humans to see who they really are and who they are not.. may be the genius of the "born again" meme...
Which adds to your thesis that born again is not evolution but devolution..
And being "human" just tests your spirit exposing who you really are.. "spiritually"..
Which may be who you are really, and all carnal gambits to mask who that is..... is trumped..
Quite a meme "being born again"... worthy of some dialog, I think.. so I engaged the subject..
Pity few are willing to entertain the subject..
being well hidden in their carnality... glorying in their flesh..
But then; thats what being human is all about.. testing "the spirits"..
Communicating with you is becoming problematic. Nowhere did I say that "born again is ...devolution.. " -- quite the opposite.
At least I tried to respond to your question. You could at least read what I wrote -- instead of reading your agenda into what I did not write!
Lost me at that great science journal “Newsweek”.
www.dissentfromdarwin.org
TX- I say that “born again is ...devolution.. “ — quite the opposite.
TX—>> NO... I would say that “conversion” or “being born again” or, “spiritual re-birth”is as close to the exact opposite of “evolution” i.e. #103 posting..
If the opposite is other than devolution than what is it?..
please try to pay attention..
I may have to pop popcorn for this evening ...
Historically; I cannot get any traction on this subject.. i.e. born again..
Understandable too.. it being so personal..
Seem to most it’s merely a bible meme.. they havn’t thought deeply about..
Or deem it as a magical or miraclous event in their lives they cannot (actually) explain..
AT least the honest ones.. talking about “IT” has a “hoodo” on it.. (it seems)..
Course those that devolve into “dogma” about it is cute.. but boring..
LIKE; when looking someone in the face mentioning “born again” .. they point saying... WHATs THAT OVER THERE.?...
AND ... you know.. actually expect you to LOOK!..
There is my definition of evolution -- clearly stated. Nowhere in it is there any guarantee of either upward OR downward change.
Your non-standard pseudo-definition of "evolution" as a positive trend is just that: non-standard, and totally non sequitur and invalid.
I'm fed up with your refusal to read and your twisting of what I have written.
What I have written, I have written. STET!
I did you the courtesy of providing a reasoned response.
Now
I
am
done
with
you
...and this discussion.
Ridiculous. If a person came out for evolution he/she would cease to be an evangelical. Mutually exclusive.
Hey, Nobodys perfect..
Suppose you have a family of young raccoons all from the same litter. These young raccoons begin to follow their mother around at night, learning how to forage for food and interact with other raccoons. One night the mother raccoon leads the brood to the back porch of a man who regularly fed the mother while she was nursing the brood. On this porch the young ones find a container of water in which they play (baby raccoons have a natural love of water), and their mother eats food from a dish set out for her.
So these young ones start to eat from the same dish. During the evening a second mother raccoon comes ambling onto the porch, with her brood of young raccoons. The little ones find the water container and start to play with the other brood. One of the newcomers ask a young'un from the first brood what the place is all about. The first brood raccoon says he hasn't a clue, but the water is fun and the food tastes good, and he expects Mom to explain it all when they all get back to the nest.
Do the noises the man who owns the porch makes when the little ones show up have any meaning to the little ones? They have meaning to the man. And the sense of safety around him is something the babies learn to depend upon, and of course they eventually learn to trust the food and the man and also learn to forage elsewhere when the food is not forthcoming. But the meaning of the sounds continues to escape their understanding.
How do you suppose one of these little ones will describe the sounds and the scene to another raccoon who has never been to the porch? Aside from raccoons not having cogent communications at a level of asking questions and sharing ideas, can you see how the status of the man with the porch is so far beyond the level of life of the raccoons that there cannot be more than a beginning of interaction, until something happens that allows raccoons to rise to the level where they begin to have cogent communication, questioning each other and interacting on a much higher plane of life?
Well, it is a possibly over simplified analogy, but it addresses what one expects from being Born Again, IF --and this is a big if-- IF the newly born again is given continuing instruction in how to access the sounds/Words from God and the changes in life which make life safer and more fulfilling. At some point the newly born again become no longer newly, and begin to dine on the feast of spiritual meat contained in the Words from God but that were not even grasped before being Born Again. Being Born Again is kind of like the phase shift of the raccoons rising to a higher level of life where they start to understand some of the sounds from the man who loves the little ones.
I think it is a splendid idea to refer to the process as “development” since the term “evolution” has grown to mean mindless, no first or final cause.
“Magic Thinking” - a great way to put it, dear MHGinTN!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.