Posted on 11/02/2013 12:04:14 AM PDT by matthewrobertolson
The Lutheran Small Catechism with Explanation (ESV) provides a classic Protestant look at ecclesiology (how one views the Church), but I find it very unconvincing and full of problems. My conclusion is that the Lutheran alternative does not seem plausible, and it most certainly can not disprove the claims of the Church.
1. Under the question, "What is the holy Christian church?", it answers:
"The holy Christian church is the communion of saints, the total number of those who believe in Christ. All believers in Christ, but only believers, are members of the church (invisible church)."This is sort of true, but what if someone has faith and still intentionally separates themself from the Church by heresy? For example, are Arians members of the Church? They believe in Christ. Are Mormons also members of the Church? What about Jehovah's Witnesses? This kind of vague, "invisible" membership leads to all sorts of problems, and it leads to the loss of absolute truth. (See the very varied views of Protestants.)
A single institutional Church is necessary, because some doctrines are "hard to understand" (2 Peter 3:16) and they need to be consistently preserved and articulated.
2. Under the question, "Why do you say 'I believe' in the church?", it answers:
"A. Because faith, which makes people members of the church, is invisible, the church is invisible to human eyes.On the second part of this answer, I have no complaints. The Holy Spirit certainly does guide the Church. However, on the first point, it cites Luke 17:20-21 and 2 Timothy 2:19 for support, taking both passages out of context. The first passage actually refers to the "end times" and people wondering about when they will be and what they will entail, and this is made clear by the rest of the chapter. The second passage simply points out that, despite heresy being almost everywhere, "the firm foundation of God stands" and "the Lord knows those who are His".B. The Scriptures assure us that the Holy Spirit continues to gather and preserve the church."
The Church is not invisible.
3. This Lutheran Catechism also makes the points that the Church's "one and only head is Christ" and the Church "belongs to Christ and is built on Him alone", but this is misleading and an intentional jab at the Church.
Christ is the now-invisible head of the Church, in that He fills Her with grace and protects Her from grave error, but the Church must have a visible head to represent Him: the Vicar (representative) of Christ, the Successor of St. Peter -- the Pope.
It is true that only Christ could lay the foundation for His Church (1 Corinthians 3:11) and that He is the cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20), and the Church absolutely recognizes this. He laid the foundation when He appointed Peter as the visible head of the Church (Matthew 16:18-19) and He is still the cornerstone -- without Christ, the Church would crumble.
Because only Christ can lay the foundation of a Church, Martin Luther had no authority to start his own sect -- unless, of course, there is some sort of evidence that definitively shows that Christ transferred His authority to him. Naturally, this evidence does not exist.
Also, remember that not everyone is "called" to Church leadership (Hebrews 5:1-4).
4. Additionally, this Catechism teaches that "the holy Christian church is to be found where 'the Gospel is purely taught and the Sacraments are correctly administered' (Augsburg Confession VII 1)".
I absolutely agree with this point, because only an organization that distributes the sacraments is a "Church" in the proper sense, though it may not be in communion with the Church. "Christ's Spirit uses [them] as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church." (Catechism of the Catholic Church, #819)
However, even after taking this into account, I also realize that the Lutheran understanding of both the Gospel and the sacraments is distorted.
Lutherans typically believe that there are only two sacraments (Baptism and Communion). Catholics, meanwhile, recognize a total of seven: Baptism, Communion (the Eucharist), Confession (Penance), Confirmation (or Chrismation), Marriage, Anointing of the Sick, and Holy Orders. Lutherans usually think of these other five as rites that do not necessarily contain God's grace, but are still historically practiced.
Just one example of the Lutheran sacramental problem is that they hold to sacramental union (Christ is "in, with, and under" the bread and wine), while the Church holds to transubstantiation (the bread and wine become the literal Body and Blood of Christ), which is the traditional view. The Lutheran departure from the historical view seems to reveal "a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words" (1 Timothy 6:3-5). Is their emphasis here more important than unity?
Meanwhile, Lutherans also debate over whether or not Confession is a sacrament. Martin Luther said one thing, but the official Defense of the Augsburg Confession says another.
"Nevertheless, it has seemed best to restrict the name of sacrament to such promises as have signs attached to them. The remainder, not being bound to signs, are bare promises. Hence there are, strictly speaking, but two sacraments in the Church of God – baptism and bread; for only in these two do we find both the divinely instituted sign and the promise of forgiveness of sins." - Martin Luther [link]With disagreements over the fundamental natures of the sacraments and their generally invalid claims to apostolic succession (which is necessary for the validity of the sacraments), Lutherans do not have a "Church" in the proper sense."If we call Sacraments rites which have the command of God, and to which the promise of grace has been added, it is easy to decide what are properly Sacraments. For rites instituted by men will not in this way be Sacraments properly so called. For it does not belong to human authority to promise grace. Therefore signs instituted without God's command are not sure signs of grace, even though they perhaps instruct the rude [children or the uncultivated], or admonish as to something [as a painted cross]. Therefore Baptism, the Lord's Supper, and Absolution, which is the Sacrament of Repentance, are truly Sacraments. For these rites have God's command and the promise of grace, which is peculiar to the New Testament." - Article XIII of the Defense of the Augsburg Confession [link]
5. Protestant ecclesiology has wrecked the doctrinal and visible unity that God demands.
In Galatians 5:16-21, St. Paul condemns "dissensions" and "factions" as "deeds of the flesh" that will result in the causers "not inherit[ing] the kingdom of God," and in Romans 16:17, he teaches that Christians should "turn away from" them. Protestants have, unfortunately, disobeyed this command.
Unity is Christ's prayer for us (John 17:11), so let us become unified again, visibly and invisibly.
"Since Christ suffered for the Church and since the Church is the body of Christ, without doubt the person who divides the Church is convicted of lacerating the body of Christ." - Council of Florence, Session 9 (23 March 1440) [link](All verses are from the NASB translation.)
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And so it is.
1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor to be with you forever--the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you know Him, for He lives with you and will be in you. John 14:16,17
Acts 15:8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts.
The RCC trying to take the role of the Holy Spirit is an abomination.
The words spoken to Mary were no different then were spoken to Jael in Judges. In fact, Jael was called blessed above women. Mary was called blessed among women.
Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Judges 5:24 Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be,
Those words were also spoken of Noah, Moses, and David.
On the last pt...do catholics accuse either the orthodox of militating vs unity? If not why not? And haven’t catholics failed to unite with orthodox under this same consideration? Aren’t they guilty of this same condemnation? Can you spell religious hypocrisy on the loose here?
On point 2...visibility of church...very greek word ecclesia...means called out ones...meaning true church is flesh and blood that the Holy Spirit indwells...not an impersonal brick and mortar structure...Holy Spirit indwells beyond the vatican...so true church is more organism ...a body...than organization
Clearly this was written by a religious non-Christian...Every Christian knows that the Kingdom of God is spiritual and that God indwells the believer...
This is why God gave us the scriptures, so that we Christians could weed out the false religions, yours included, and not be led away with lies and false doctrines...
Interesting...this author says in point 2 that the church is not invisible...then a couple of graphs later says Christ IS invisible...seems one role of church IS to make Christ visible to world..and not just dr4aw attention to themselves...epic fail by this catholic writer to recognize that
Luther and all of us are part of priesthood of all believers...a portion of nt ignored by catholics...see 1 peter 2:4 to 9...also rev 1:6
The “Orthodox Christ” is not to be found in the Scriptures. So the question must be asked, Is this “Universal Church” Christian?
Luke : Chapter 1 Verse 48
“For behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
Catholics are part of the generations calling Mary blessed as the bible instructs.
If non catholics don’t like the Hail Mary, fine; but don’t label it as unscriptural.
“
Certainly you are correct that Mary is blessed. The problem I have is in praying to her.
http://www.ask.com/wiki/Hail_Mary#Biblical_source
In Western (Latin) tradition
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen[10]
Lutheran use
Martin Luther, the founder of Lutheranism, believed that Mary should be held in highest reverence. Although he did not agree in Mary’s veneration, he did advocate the use of the first half of the Hail Mary (that is, “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.”) as a sign of reverence for and devotion to the Virgin.[14][15][16]
Catholics argue that praying to Mary and the saints is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for us. Let us examine that claim. (1) The Apostle Paul asks other Christians to pray for him in Ephesians 6:19. Many Scriptures describe believers praying for one another (2 Corinthians 1:11; Ephesians 1:16; Philippians 1:19; 2 Timothy 1:3). The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in heaven to pray for him. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in heaven praying for anyone on earth. (2) The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient. Even glorified in heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people? Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination—activities the Bible strongly condemns (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13). In the one instance when a “saint” is spoken to, Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:7-19, Samuel is not exactly happy to be disturbed. It is clear that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking someone here on earth to pray for us. One has a strong biblical basis; the other has no biblical basis whatsoever.
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/prayer-saints-Mary.html#ixzz2jUyquJ1H
Born to a Roman Catholic family (his father was a copper miner), Luther graduated from the University of Erfurt in 1505 but abandoned his legal studies to enter a monastery devoted to St. Augustine.
He was ordained to the priesthood in 1507 and by 1512 was a doctor of theology and a Bible professor at the University of Wittenberg. Luther was a gifted preacher but his theology began to clash with that of the Catholic church: he wrote that salvation came not by any human work but by absolute faith in God's promise of forgiveness on account of Jesus Christ. Luther didn't anticipate the uproar touched off by the 95 Theses he sent to a bishop and archbishop to protest "indulgences" being sold by the Catholic hierarchy under Pope Leo X. His controversial beliefs earned him excommunication from the church, but he pressed on with many new followers.
Luther produced the first reader-friendly German translation of the Bible and developed a new form of Christian worship that emphasized preaching and popular hymns, permitted the clergy to marry, and honored ordinary life in the world as a field for God's service.
Extra credit: In 1525, Luther married a former nun, Katharina (Katherine) von Bora, sixteen years younger than he. They had six children... Luther's hymn, "A Mighty Fortress is our God" (circa 1529), has been translated into more than 50 languages.
It is likely that Luther nailed his 95 Theses to the door of the castle church in Wittenberg, but historians disagree on that story's accuracy... Yes, the Lutheran church is named for Luther.
Off topic: I remember reading that the people MOST "opposed" to priests marrying were the WIVES of Protestant priests. They said that is was impossible for a priest/minister to be good at being a "father" to BOTH his congregation AND his own family. There simply wasn't enough time in the day for both.
Yes. The first point makes no sense.
I suggest that you first graduate from college. Hopefully, after you learn to make a full argument from textual exegesis of scripture with proper hermeneutics. Until then, you are no use in guarding the papal tiara.
The Lord Jesus can see the faith in our hearts. We, however, can only see the fruits of faith and not the faith itself. Because we cannot see faith, the church is invisible to our eyes. The prophet Elijah did not recognize that there were still seven thousand believers in Israel (1 Kings 19:8-18). He thought that he was the only believer left. Likewise, we cannot always tell whether a person is a believer or an unbeliever.
Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, they all belong to the church because they believed in God’s sure promise to send a redeemer and that faith in God’s promise was credited to them as righteousness; and yet they are invisible. Thus, the church is invisible.
Even among those visible, only God can discern what is in their hearts and their faith in His promise. Thus, even those who dutifully prostrate before the pope or do otherwise are not necessarily in the church. Thus, the true church is invisible to human eye but not for God.
Remember, there are tares among the wheat and God allows the tares without pulling them out lest he damages the wheat.
In terms of heretical sects such as Arians, Mormons, Jehovah’s witnesses “believing in christ,” they believe in Him the same manner the devil believes in Him; as a reality but NOT as a redeemer who has fully propitiated God’s wrath towards sin of the whole world on the cross AND gives us His righteousness purely out of grace through His Word and Sacrament. And there is nothing we can do that can supplement it, complete it, replace it. Any attempt to do so will only demonstrate the lack of faith in God’s promise of the sufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.
An argument for a single institutional church doesn’t follow from that.
On Point 2, how is Luke 17:20-21 and 2 Tim 2:19 was taken out of context? Why don’t you put it context and conduct proper exegesis?
On Point 3, the third person in Trinity, the Holy Spirit, is the author of the scriptures which is the only means by which God calls and gathers his church to give them true faith in Jesus, the second person in Trinity, that is necessary.
On Point 4, if you agree with it, that makes you a heretic in Rome’s eyes. Only where the scripture is purely taught and sacraments are administered according the the scripture is where the true church found. It is a leap in logic that a institutional church that passes magical mojo from apostles to bishop to bishop is required. How can an institutional church can be trusted to properly teach pure doctrine and administer sacraments according to the Word when it views the scriptures as soft and malleable wax instead of God’s sure promise?
On Point 5, thank God for wrecking the visible unity. The visible unity is important only for the pope to maintain his tiara. Since popes were always willing to negotiate every single point of doctrine and scripture and faith as long as their tiara is protected, they were only going to lead people to hell.......visibly in light of scripture.
“Catholics are part of the generations calling Mary blessed as the bible instructs.
If non catholics don’t like the Hail Mary, fine; but don’t label it as unscriptural.”
But we call Mary blessed too, but we don’t worship her like a goddess like Catholics do. It’s because we don’t make her more blessed than everybody else:
“And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.”
(Luk 11:27-28)
“..worship her like a goddess as Catholics do...”
Catholics do not worship Mary like a Goddesss. Someone non catholic started and then handed down this false tradition to be taught to non catholics and now they believe it even though it is NOT correct.
Mary is Blessed as in Luke AND Blessed are they that hear the word of God and keep it.
The second doesn’t somehow cancel the first.
Claiming without merit that Catholics worship Mary like a Goddess is bearing false witness.
If Mary was a Goddess she could not have passed onto Jesus his human nature, which was very important.
Luther taking on the role of the Holy Spirit is also abomination.
Luther was the one who randomly decided 1500 years after the death of Christ that somehow the Romans verse that “The just man lives by faith”; which is perfectly correct, somehow morphs into faith alone, which goes against the teaching from James that Faith without good works is dead.
Both are correct - ALL scripture is profitable.
Why did the Holy Spirit wait 1500 years for someone (a failed Augustinian) to get it right?
Every verse you wrote about the Holy Spirit is true; none of it proves that Luther’s interpretation of the Holy Spirit’s intent is somehow more correct than the Church’s interpretation of the Holy Spirit’s intent.
Both are interpretations because both positions are in the bible.
“Mary is Blessed as in Luke AND Blessed are they that hear the word of God and keep it.
The second doesn’t somehow cancel the first.”
Why would I want to cancel the first one? It’s good enough that there are others who are just as blessed. If they are just as blessed, why do we not fall down and pray to Tom from down the street who is a committed Christian?
“Catholics do not worship Mary like a Goddesss.”
Yes they do. They offer her prayer, thus making her omnipresent and omniscient in order to even hear it. They also ascribe to her the power of saving people from the wrath and ignorance of Jesus Christ. For example, from the Secret of the Rosary, endorsed by Pope JPII:
“One day the King fell seriously ill and when he was given up for dead he found himself, in a vision, before the judgement seat of Our Lord. Many devils were there accusing him of all the sins he had committed and Our Lord as Sovereign Judge was just about to condemn him to hell when Our Lady appeared to intercede for him. She called for a pair of scales and had his sins placed in one of the balances whereas she put the rosary that he had always worn on the other scale, together with all the Rosaries that had been said because of his example. It was found that the Rosaries weighed more than his sins.
Looking at him with great kindness Our Lady said: “As a reward for this little honor that you paid me in wearing my Rosary, I have obtained a great grace for you from my Son. Your life will be spared for a few more years. See that you spend these years wisely, and do penance.”
When the King regained consciousness he cried out: “Blessed be the Rosary of the Most Holy Virgin Mary, by which I have been delivered from eternal damnation!”
After he had recovered his health he spent the rest of his life in spreading devotion to the Holy Rosary and said it faithfully every day.
People who love the Blessed Virgin out to follow the example of King Alphonsus and that of the saints whom I have mentioned so that they too may win other souls for the Confraternity of the Holy Rosary. They will then receive great graces on earth and eternal life later on. “They that explain me shall have life everlasting life.” [1] Ecclus. 24:31”
Another story on how saying rosaries can earn you salvation:
“Later on, when she was at prayer she fell into ecstasy and had a vision of her soul appearing before the Supreme Judge. Saint Michael put all her penances and to her prayers on one side of the scale and all her sins and imperfections on the other. The tray of her good works were greatly outweighed by that of her sins and imperfections.
Filled with alarm, she cried out for mercy, imploring the help of the Blessed Virgin, her gracious advocate, who took the one and only Rosary she had said for her penance and dropped it on the tray of her good works. This one Rosary was so heavy that it weighed more than all her sins as well as her good works. Our Lady then reproved her for having refused to follow the counsel of her servant Dominic and for not saying the Rosary every day.
As soon as she came to herself she rushed and threw herself at the feet of Saint Dominic and told him all that had happened, begged his forgiveness and promised to say the Rosary faithfully every day. By this means she rose to Christian perfection and finally to the glory of everlasting life.”
http://www.rosary-center.org/secret.htm
Popes on the “sure and most efficacious means” for help from heaven:
“We constantly seek for help from Heaven - the sole means of effecting anything - that our labours and our care may obtain their wished for object. We deem that there could be no surer and more efficacious means to this end than by religion and piety to obtain the favour of the great Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, the guardian of our peace and the minister to us of heavenly grace, who is placed on the highest summit of power and glory in Heaven, in order that she may bestow the help of her patronage on men who through so many labours and dangers are striving to reach that eternal city. Now that the anniversary, therefore, of manifold and exceedingly great favours obtained by a Christian people through the devotion of the Rosary is at hand, We desire that that same devotion should be offered by the whole Catholic world with the greatest earnestness to the Blessed Virgin, that by her intercession her Divine Son may be appeased and softened in the evils which afflict us. And therefore We determined, Venerable Brethren, to despatch to you these letters in order that, informed of Our designs, your authority and zeal might excite the piety of your people to conform themselves to them.” (ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII ON DEVOTION OF THE ROSARY)
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_01091883_supremi-apostolatus-officio_en.html
A decree to perform them:
“We decree and order that in the whole Catholic world, during this year, the devotion of the Rosary shall be solemnly celebrated by special and splendid services. From the first day of next October, therefore, until the second day of the November following, in every parish and, if the ecclesiastical authority deem it opportune and of use, in every chapel dedicated to the Blessed Virgin - let five decades of the Rosary be recited with the addition of the Litany of Loreto.” (SUPREMI APOSTOLATUS OFFICIO, ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII ON DEVOTION OF THE ROSARY)
The importance of the Rosary to a Pope:
“With these words, dear brothers and sisters, I set the first year of my Pontificate within the daily rhythm of the Rosary. Today, as I begin the twenty-fifth year of my service as the Successor of Peter, I wish to do the same. How many graces have I received in these years from the Blessed Virgin through the Rosary: Magnificat anima mea Dominum! I wish to lift up my thanks to the Lord in the words of his Most Holy Mother, under whose protection I have placed my Petrine ministry: Totus Tuus!” (ROSARIUM VIRGINIS MARIAE OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF JOHN PAUL II)
Obviously, when you have Mary depicted as being more merciful and knowledgeable than the son, and devotion to her specifically saving this person from the punishment of Christ, you’ve another rival deity who is more approachable, foresighted and merciful than Christ Himself. You also deny Christ’s work on the cross.
“Luther was the one who randomly decided 1500 years after the death of Christ that somehow the Romans verse that “The just man lives by faith”; which is perfectly correct, somehow morphs into faith alone, which goes against the teaching from James that Faith without good works is dead.”
But you wrest his position, which is, that faith is shown by works, but that no quantity of works can ever justify a man, only the quality of the faith which shows itself by its works. Furthermore, both faith and works must bow to grace, which is the cause of both, so that no man is saved but by the mercy of God, who creates in man faith and works, and does not save a man by those very same works, but saves them so that they perform them.
How can you write against Luther if you won’t even acknowledge what his actual position is?
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