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5 Problems with Lutheran Ecclesiology
Answering Protestants ^ | 2 November 2013 | Matthew Olson

Posted on 11/02/2013 12:04:14 AM PDT by matthewrobertolson

The Lutheran Small Catechism with Explanation (ESV) provides a classic Protestant look at ecclesiology (how one views the Church), but I find it very unconvincing and full of problems. My conclusion is that the Lutheran alternative does not seem plausible, and it most certainly can not disprove the claims of the Church.

1. Under the question, "What is the holy Christian church?", it answers:

"The holy Christian church is the communion of saints, the total number of those who believe in Christ. All believers in Christ, but only believers, are members of the church (invisible church)."
This is sort of true, but what if someone has faith and still intentionally separates themself from the Church by heresy? For example, are Arians members of the Church? They believe in Christ. Are Mormons also members of the Church? What about Jehovah's Witnesses? This kind of vague, "invisible" membership leads to all sorts of problems, and it leads to the loss of absolute truth. (See the very varied views of Protestants.)

A single institutional Church is necessary, because some doctrines are "hard to understand" (2 Peter 3:16) and they need to be consistently preserved and articulated.

2. Under the question, "Why do you say 'I believe' in the church?", it answers:

"A. Because faith, which makes people members of the church, is invisible, the church is invisible to human eyes.

B. The Scriptures assure us that the Holy Spirit continues to gather and preserve the church."

On the second part of this answer, I have no complaints. The Holy Spirit certainly does guide the Church. However, on the first point, it cites Luke 17:20-21 and 2 Timothy 2:19 for support, taking both passages out of context. The first passage actually refers to the "end times" and people wondering about when they will be and what they will entail, and this is made clear by the rest of the chapter. The second passage simply points out that, despite heresy being almost everywhere, "the firm foundation of God stands" and "the Lord knows those who are His".

The Church is not invisible.

3. This Lutheran Catechism also makes the points that the Church's "one and only head is Christ" and the Church "belongs to Christ and is built on Him alone", but this is misleading and an intentional jab at the Church.

Christ is the now-invisible head of the Church, in that He fills Her with grace and protects Her from grave error, but the Church must have a visible head to represent Him: the Vicar (representative) of Christ, the Successor of St. Peter -- the Pope.

It is true that only Christ could lay the foundation for His Church (1 Corinthians 3:11) and that He is the cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20), and the Church absolutely recognizes this. He laid the foundation when He appointed Peter as the visible head of the Church (Matthew 16:18-19) and He is still the cornerstone -- without Christ, the Church would crumble.

Because only Christ can lay the foundation of a Church, Martin Luther had no authority to start his own sect -- unless, of course, there is some sort of evidence that definitively shows that Christ transferred His authority to him. Naturally, this evidence does not exist.

Also, remember that not everyone is "called" to Church leadership (Hebrews 5:1-4).

4. Additionally, this Catechism teaches that "the holy Christian church is to be found where 'the Gospel is purely taught and the Sacraments are correctly administered' (Augsburg Confession VII 1)".

I absolutely agree with this point, because only an organization that distributes the sacraments is a "Church" in the proper sense, though it may not be in communion with the Church. "Christ's Spirit uses [them] as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church." (Catechism of the Catholic Church, #819)

However, even after taking this into account, I also realize that the Lutheran understanding of both the Gospel and the sacraments is distorted.

Lutherans typically believe that there are only two sacraments (Baptism and Communion). Catholics, meanwhile, recognize a total of seven: Baptism, Communion (the Eucharist), Confession (Penance), Confirmation (or Chrismation), Marriage, Anointing of the Sick, and Holy Orders. Lutherans usually think of these other five as rites that do not necessarily contain God's grace, but are still historically practiced.

Just one example of the Lutheran sacramental problem is that they hold to sacramental union (Christ is "in, with, and under" the bread and wine), while the Church holds to transubstantiation (the bread and wine become the literal Body and Blood of Christ), which is the traditional view. The Lutheran departure from the historical view seems to reveal "a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words" (1 Timothy 6:3-5). Is their emphasis here more important than unity?

Meanwhile, Lutherans also debate over whether or not Confession is a sacrament. Martin Luther said one thing, but the official Defense of the Augsburg Confession says another.

"Nevertheless, it has seemed best to restrict the name of sacrament to such promises as have signs attached to them. The remainder, not being bound to signs, are bare promises. Hence there are, strictly speaking, but two sacraments in the Church of God – baptism and bread; for only in these two do we find both the divinely instituted sign and the promise of forgiveness of sins." - Martin Luther [link]

"If we call Sacraments rites which have the command of God, and to which the promise of grace has been added, it is easy to decide what are properly Sacraments. For rites instituted by men will not in this way be Sacraments properly so called. For it does not belong to human authority to promise grace. Therefore signs instituted without God's command are not sure signs of grace, even though they perhaps instruct the rude [children or the uncultivated], or admonish as to something [as a painted cross]. Therefore Baptism, the Lord's Supper, and Absolution, which is the Sacrament of Repentance, are truly Sacraments. For these rites have God's command and the promise of grace, which is peculiar to the New Testament." - Article XIII of the Defense of the Augsburg Confession [link]

With disagreements over the fundamental natures of the sacraments and their generally invalid claims to apostolic succession (which is necessary for the validity of the sacraments), Lutherans do not have a "Church" in the proper sense.

5. Protestant ecclesiology has wrecked the doctrinal and visible unity that God demands.

In Galatians 5:16-21, St. Paul condemns "dissensions" and "factions" as "deeds of the flesh" that will result in the causers "not inherit[ing] the kingdom of God," and in Romans 16:17, he teaches that Christians should "turn away from" them. Protestants have, unfortunately, disobeyed this command.

Unity is Christ's prayer for us (John 17:11), so let us become unified again, visibly and invisibly.

"Since Christ suffered for the Church and since the Church is the body of Christ, without doubt the person who divides the Church is convicted of lacerating the body of Christ." - Council of Florence, Session 9 (23 March 1440) [link]
(All verses are from the NASB translation.)

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TOPICS: Apologetics; General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; church; faith; lutheran
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1 posted on 11/02/2013 12:04:15 AM PDT by matthewrobertolson
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To: matthewrobertolson

First question:

Is this one of those protected sites where you can’t comment or make a statement?


2 posted on 11/02/2013 12:13:57 AM PDT by Deagle (m)
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To: matthewrobertolson; TNMountainMan; alphadog; infool7; Heart-Rest; HoosierDammit; red irish; ...

“Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’ “


3 posted on 11/02/2013 12:23:57 AM PDT by narses (... unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.)
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To: matthewrobertolson

I dont understand the first point. Arians, Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe in Christ (or at least not the Christ orthodox Christians know) so therefore they are not part of the Universal Church.


4 posted on 11/02/2013 2:23:52 AM PDT by Vanders9
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To: matthewrobertolson

I am not a Lutheran, but I can safely say this author has no idea of what he is talking about.

The post is full of misrepesentations and half-truths about what my Lutheran brothers and sisters believe.


5 posted on 11/02/2013 2:48:14 AM PDT by Gamecock (Many Atheists take the stand: "There is no God AND I hate Him.")
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To: narses

If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.


I can picture this.. then he opened his hands raised an eyebrow
and said; “DUUUUUUGH”..


6 posted on 11/02/2013 3:37:02 AM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: Vanders9

The point there is: who defines “orthodox,” if there is no authoritative institution to look to?


7 posted on 11/02/2013 3:50:54 AM PDT by matthewrobertolson
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To: Gamecock
I am not a Lutheran, but I can safely say this author has no idea of what he is talking about. The post is full of misrepesentations and half-truths about what my Lutheran brothers and sisters believe. I was confirmed as a Lutheran (before becoming Catholic), so please enlighten me as to how I have "no idea of what [I am] talking about." Please also demonstrate exactly how this post is "full of misrepesentations and half-truths".
8 posted on 11/02/2013 3:52:55 AM PDT by matthewrobertolson
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To: matthewrobertolson
There is no Scriptural support for a single global visible church, let alone an invisible earthly church. There are, as in the NT, only local visible churches, composed of both regenerate believers and unregenerate believers, with local church officers of elders and deacons.

The only church invisible to us (but not to God nor to Satan and his angels from afar, nor to saints gone into Glory with God's singing angels) is the general festal gathering and summoned deliberative body in Heaven, mentioned in Hebrews 12:23. Jesus announced:

"My Kingdom is not of this world system . . ." (Jn 18:36b).

Jesus certainly did not give Simon bar Jonah (Peter) any more authority than He gave any of the other disciples, or that He has given to any regenerated believer-disciple-priest today, for in Mt. 18:18 He said:

"Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. "

(The correct grammatical exegesis her is that He is saying that whatsoever you-all--not just thou, Peter, but all of you--shall bind on earth is that which is already bound in heaven; and whatsoever yo-all shall loose on earth is that which is already loosed in heaven.)

Here, the "you" is plural, and he is addressing the entire company (including Judas of Kerioth), and perhaps even more, including women, who kept company with them.

Christ, in Mt. 16:19, never said that the keys of the kingdom were restricted to Peter alone, for the keys that open the way to the Kingdom of The God are the articles of The Faith given by preaching the Gospel, and though a herald may exercise the keys of the Gospel, with The Holy Ghost opening the eys of one's understanding, the hearer chooses whether to enter, not the preacher. Nor can the herald/preacher close the gates for the enterer.

Furthermore, take notice that at this point in time, none of these disciples were yet saved as Christians, for the first prototype local church at Jerusalem was not yet formed. In fact, Peter himself was not yet converted, let alone regenerated (born of the Spirit), for Jesus said, on the very night previous to His slaughter, he commanded Simon:

"And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren" (Lk 22:31-32).

Then, subsequently, Peter denied him six times--thrice before the first chortle of the rooster, then three times more after the first and before the second rooster's crow. One may assume that Peter, not having foreknowledge, concluded that his salvation was lost, for had he not been clearly taught by Jesus the Anointed One, The Master:

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple" (Lk. 14:26);

and:

"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven" (Mt. 10:32-33).

And, altogether, Simon left off following Christ six times, IIRC, as well as denying Him 6 times just before the Sacrifice of the Only Lamb whose Blood could wash away sins.

Though Simon Peter was the first to exercise the keys on the day of Pentecost, and 3,000 more entered into the Kingdom and were added to the Jerusalem church, later on he was not the local ruling elder; James was. Nor was Peter accorded a ministry beyond supervising the evangelism to the Jewish segment. It was Paul, trained both in gentile liberal arts and in theology by ben Gamaliel and later by Christ, that was assigned to the evangelism mission to the rest of human society. Peter as a "Pope"? Nah.

The faith summed in the above article won'tr hold Bible truth any more than a sieve will hold water. IMHO.

9 posted on 11/02/2013 4:23:28 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: matthewrobertolson
"The point there is: who defines “orthodox,” if there is no authoritative institution to look to?"

In which case who defines which institution is "authoritative"? It's the same problem just restated. Scripture and the Holy Spirit define orthodoxy.

10 posted on 11/02/2013 4:30:28 AM PDT by circlecity
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To: matthewrobertolson

When Jesus himself taught the disciples to pray be began with “Our Father...” not “Holy Mary...” That little bit of non-scriptural practice was added by someone else.


11 posted on 11/02/2013 4:40:41 AM PDT by tbpiper
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To: Gamecock
A single institutional Church is necessary, because some doctrines are "hard to understand"

Sounds like the Obama administration.

12 posted on 11/02/2013 4:53:13 AM PDT by Usagi_yo
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To: Usagi_yo

“sounds like the Obama administration...”

An appropriate analogy would be that the Supreme Court is needed to uphold the constitution (etc.) because laws become complicated and need an authority to clarify them when they are called into question. (Before the Supreme Court became a bunch of liberals with an agenda, as it was first intended).

A teaching authority is evenyually required as the human brain easily becomes confused and issues evolve that need clarification; without a final authority everyone ends up making up their own interpretations, Luther included.


13 posted on 11/02/2013 5:34:19 AM PDT by stonehouse01 (Equal rights for unborn women)
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To: matthewrobertolson

Apologetics are a waste of time, IMHO. Just believe and leave the judgements to God.


14 posted on 11/02/2013 5:55:11 AM PDT by firebasecody (Orthodoxy, proclaiming the Truth since AD 33)
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To: matthewrobertolson

Setting up straw men and knocking them down is not a recognized form of apologetics


15 posted on 11/02/2013 5:59:45 AM PDT by Nifster
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To: stonehouse01

Still sounds like the Obama administration.

I reject your entire notion. To put it bluntly. I know when another man volunteers to interpret religion for me, it’s time to put my hand on my wallet and one foot out the door.


16 posted on 11/02/2013 6:00:53 AM PDT by Usagi_yo
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To: matthewrobertolson

The Bible is sufficient as an authoritative base. I do not need a man made ‘theology’ in order to know God and be a believer and follower of His only begotten Son.


17 posted on 11/02/2013 6:01:13 AM PDT by Nifster
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To: tbpiper

“..little bit of non scriptural practice...”

Luke : Chapter 1 Verse 48

For behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

Catholics are part of the generations calling Mary blessed as the bible instructs.

If non catholics don’t like the Hail Mary, fine; but don’t label it as unscriptural.


18 posted on 11/02/2013 6:04:15 AM PDT by stonehouse01 (Equal rights for unborn women)
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To: Usagi_yo

Just making the point that Luther’s interpretation is as up for grabs as anyone’s.


19 posted on 11/02/2013 6:05:15 AM PDT by stonehouse01 (Equal rights for unborn women)
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To: matthewrobertolson

Well your first mistake was assuming an air of divine knowledge.


20 posted on 11/02/2013 6:06:57 AM PDT by Usagi_yo
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