Posted on 07/20/2012 8:34:15 AM PDT by NYer
Following along from the link you provided, here's a sentence that will make you do a real double take when you're reading rapidly:
The cunningness of the Devil knows no boundaries!
Cunningness isn't as commonly used as a similar word. Anyway, I hurt my eyeballs zapping them back across the page to that sentence then started laughing. Just shows how often some formerly unmentionable things are now mentioned.
Regards
“I say that it is up to the Magisterium.”
That’s a very interesting statement. You appear to be referring to the current magisterium as opposed to the eternal Magisterium, as if the former trumps the latter whenever there is obvious conflict between the two.
And please don’t try to tell me there isn’t conflict between the two.
“Extra Ecclesiam nulla sallus” will be my first rebuttal to your defense, if any, of the current magisterium and its teachings.
"Probably a more accurate parallel would be the bishops who rebelled after Nicea in 325. Some of them were very well meaning. However, they were wrong. "
That's a helpful comparison, thanks.
No, Fr. Z, with all respect, this point is exactly what makes it a serious debate. If a bridge exists between the left wing interpretation of Vatican II and the immutable Holy Tradition, then it is incumbent on the Roman Curia to demonstrate it, and if there isn't such bridge then it is incumbent on the Roman Curia to issue a clarifying doctrinal document that draws a sharp line between the true magisterial teaching and the Catholic liberalism.
It is clear now that SSPX won't reconcile unless the conversation is elevated to this point, and the entire Church is better for it.
Since the current Magisterium is the portion of the eternal Magisterium that occurs now, they are one and the same. No conflict.
And please don’t try to tell me there isn’t conflict between the two.
There isn't.
“Extra Ecclesiam nulla sallus” will be my first rebuttal to your defense, if any, of the current magisterium and its teachings.
Very good. I will point to the current feeble state of the Feeneyites and their warring factions as a first riposte. If they were the one true and traditional Catholic Church, they would not have broken down so quickly into internecine warfare.
Secondly, we have the words of Paul in Timothy 2:4 in which he says that God wills that all men be saved. Not all men who have died are within the Catholic Church - indeed many have never heard of it, or else have dismissed it. Is that God's fault or ours - who have been charged with evangelizing the world?
Am I a Universalist? Nope. There will be many who will be thrown into the everlasting fire based upon their own particular Judgement.
However, there is the hope of salvation. Aborted babies are rarely baptized before they are murdered. Are they within the Catholic Church? Are they condemned to hell because their mothers decided to have them dismembered alive and sucked into a sink?
Don't know. I ask God for mercy upon them, as I do for myself. Lord knows that I deserve eternal punishment a whole lot more than an innocent baby. How about a Protestant or Jewish or Hindu or Buddhist baby that is aborted. Do you think that they go to eternal hellfire?
We hold out the hope to which St Paul constantly writes, about our salvation. Do you have hope or do you subscribe to OSAS? Or predestination to Heaven or Hell?
Are you aware that the < pre > tag you are using is screwing up the formatting for the entire page? It causes all the lines to wrap to the length of your longest line of text formatted with this tag.
Please avoid it.
That's a helpful comparison, thanks.
Very good. There really isn't anything new under the sun w.r.t. Church history. Not much anyway. A lot has been done in the last 2000 years, and some much worse than has been done recently...
The Magisterium should condemn the liberal interpretations of the so-called “liberty of conscience” just like it condemned Feeneyism, because both are contrary to the Holy Tradition.
Completely agree. I think that the pendulum is definitely swinging in the right direction - the crackdowns on the renegade priests and nuns are good examples. However, the public declarations have been sorely lacking.
For this particular Catholic, anyway...
Regards
“Aborted babies are rarely baptized before they are murdered.”
How do you baptize an unborn baby? Secondly, you should have no concern about whether that baby was baptized or not since the current “magisterium” (as Cardinal Ratzinger) has dissed the idea of Limbo of the Unborn. Makes it much easier for a mother to murder her child thinking he’ll go straight to Heaven rather than Limbo, since Limbo doesn’t exist.
Do you not think this recent, and new, teaching of the magisterium has led to abortions, that would not have occurred otherwise without the above encouragement that all unborn babies go to Heaven?
Or send me some money, I'll buy a bigger monitor.
Try font face="Courier" or something similar to indicate a quote. That will wrap: Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.
How do you baptize an unborn baby?
It's called sarcasm, a reasonably useful literary device at times.
Secondly, you should have no concern about whether that baby was baptized or not since the current “magisterium” (as Cardinal Ratzinger) has dissed the idea of Limbo of the Unborn. Makes it much easier for a mother to murder her child thinking he’ll go straight to Heaven rather than Limbo, since Limbo doesn’t exist.
That's not the teaching, but I've found that anyone very emotionally attached to a subject may arrive at any justification, grasp at any straw and lie like a Democratic politician in order to try to seem to support their decisions. However, I've known far too many who aborted their babies, and exactly none of them have shared this justification with me.
Do you not think this recent, and new, teaching of the magisterium has led to abortions, that would not have occurred otherwise without the above encouragement that all unborn babies go to Heaven?
Nope. I think that the encouragement of splitting from the Catholic Church and taking theological matters into one's own hands, rather than relying on the Magisterium for correct theological interpretation and instruction has endangered many souls. Were Luther, Zwingli and Calvin evil because of the their persuasive guidance away from the Church?
That's the big problem, Mark. It is "our (Catholics) fault". Rome has stopped evangelizing, let alone prosletizing. She is now dialoguing and (believe it or not) still searching for some unseen "truth" along with protestants, muslims, hindus, etc. that has not yet been found.
“However, I’ve known far too many who aborted their babies, and exactly none of them have shared this justification with me.”
“Far too many”? Where do you meet these people, in your church?
I have stood outside abortion clinics, counseling pregnant woman. All of the ones who proceeded with the murder of their child either said, “It’s not a human” or “If it is a baby, he’ll go to Heaven”.
Thanks, Cardinal Ratzinger.
That's the most awkward and inept attempt to deflect a topic I have ever seen. Congrats!
But, since you've jumped the rails already, what theological principles are in dispute? And since when does one delve into what you call "theological interpretation".
It's very spooky when one talks about "interpreting" theology. Are you a Jesuit?
There's no difference between them. None will go to Hell.
Their parents might, however!
That's the big problem, Mark. It is "our (Catholics) fault".
Quite agree.
Rome has stopped evangelizing, let alone prosletizing.
Negatory. We are very involved in evangelizing. That does involve some of the, shall we say, folks less adhered to the Faith, unfortunately.
She is now dialoguing and (believe it or not) still searching for some unseen "truth" along with protestants, muslims, hindus, etc. that has not yet been found.
We are looking at drawing them into the Faith. That is a part of evangelizing.
“Far too many”? Where do you meet these people, in your church?
In my everyday life. I do not shun all of those who many find distasteful.
I have stood outside abortion clinics, counseling pregnant woman. All of the ones who proceeded with the murder of their child either said, “It’s not a human” or “If it is a baby, he’ll go to Heaven”.
It'd be interesting if you found out how many of them professed Catholicism. I suspect very few.
Thanks, Cardinal Ratzinger.
He's a better man than I am, Gunga Din.
That's the most awkward and inept attempt to deflect a topic I have ever seen. Congrats!
How does one differ from a Protestant when one considers that one can discern theologically better than the Pope and the entire Magisterium?
But, since you've jumped the rails already, what theological principles are in dispute? And since when does one delve into what you call "theological interpretation".
What makes you different from Calvin except that you have not published a theological text and subjugated Geneva?
It's very spooky when one talks about "interpreting" theology. Are you a Jesuit?
Heavens, no. Knight of Columbus, yes.
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