"Computer, computer?"
Posted on 10/18/2010 10:45:49 AM PDT by T Minus Four
When the Lord told the Jaredites he would lead them to a new land (Ether 2:7), he also instructed them to build eight barges to traverse the waters to their new destination (v. 16).
According to Ether, these barges, which were patterned after Noah's Ark (6:7), were "tight like unto a dish," peaked at both ends and had holes that could be unplugged to allow ventilation (2:17, 20).
The story of Noah, or some equivalent figure, is found in a wide array of ancient non-biblical literature and could easily have been known to the ancient Jaredites. Some of these traditions about the Ark — or "deluge boat" — contain details and oddities not found in the Bible.
Dr. Hugh Nibley has shown that several of these non-biblical details and oddities are also found in the Jaredite account.
Some of these ancient sources, for example, claim that the shape of the deluge boat resembled a crescent moon when viewed from the profile. Like the Jaredite barges, it would have been peaked on both ends. Artwork of actual sea-going vessels from the Tyrians and Sidonians show that some boats really had such a shape.
Although the book of Ether never says that the Jaredite barges had sails, we are told (as noted in a last week's installment) that the barges were driven by furious winds (Ether 6:5-9). While the Bible never mentions that wind was a factor in propelling the Ark, the deluge boat was supposedly sail-less but driven by ferocious winds.
Just as the Jaredite barges were "tight like unto a dish," the deluge boat had a portal that could be shut during the storm flood. The word "ark," in fact, originally meant a "box" — such as a chest or coffin — that was covered with a lid. And just as the barges had ventilation holes, the Ark had not only a door that could be shut but at least one nappashu, which is translated as "air-hole" or "window" but means "breather" or "ventilator" and was not an ordinary window. The Jaredite barges and the deluge boat both took on almost submarine-like natures, often being submerged in violent waves during their voyage.
Concerned about the lack of light in the barges, the brother of Jared asked the Lord for some means of illumination. Glass would break, the Lord replied, and they couldn't light fires, so the Lord turned the problem back over to the brother of Jared. Having complete faith in the Lord's abilities, the brother of Jared climbed a mountain, "did molten out of rock" 16 small transparent stones and asked the Lord to touch the stones so they would shine in their vessels.
While the tale of "shining stones" has elicited the laughs of critics, we find that the story is perfectly at home in ancient lore. According to the ancient Palestine Talmud, for example, the Ark was illuminated with a miraculous light-giving stone. This precious stone supposedly glowed for 12 months inside the Ark and would dim during the day so that Noah knew if it was day or night outside.
Such information was likely unavailable to Joseph Smith. As Dr. Nibley explains, of the four copies of the Palestine Talmud that mention the Ark's shining stones, two appeared 30 years after Joseph had already translated the Book of Mormon. When the Book of Mormon was published, there was not a single translation of the Palestine Talmud available in any modern language.
As noted above, it was the brother of Jared, not the Lord, who suggested the idea of the shining stones. It seems reasonable to surmise that the brother of Jared was familiar with an ancient tradition of Noah and his illuminated stones. One of those ancient sources (unknown in 1830) relates the tradition of a gem that could be produced by subjecting certain stones to intense heat. The resulting gem would be a perfectly transparent crystal which shined as brightly as the sun (see the same elements in Ether 3:2, 4).
The common name for this gem was "Moonfriend," or Jalakanta, which interprets, "that which causes the waters to part." Thus the peculiar power of this shining gem enabled its possessor to pass through the depths of water unharmed.
The Ark was also called a "bright house" or moon-boat, not only "because it was crescent-shaped and wandered through space for 12 months, but also because it was illuminated by a miraculous light." While ancient Babylonian texts tell us that the deluge-boat had a "window" or nappashu, the "window" in Genesis comes from the Hebrew tsohar, which also translates as "shiner" or "illuminator."
The Book of Mormon version, which is a fuller account than any other, contains both ideas — that the barges had a ventilator as well as an illuminator.
Can you direct me to the Department of Redundancy Department?
_______________________________________________
Sunday Is a Day to Remember Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ ???
Only Sunday ??? and only in remembrance ???
I have a body like heavenly father's
Well right there is further proof that the mormon god "heavenly father" (father divine) is not God of the Christian Bible
"God is Spirit" (the LORD Jesus Christ, John 4:24)
So unless all those mormon primary children are invisible, Houston we have a problem...
LOL. My thoughts exactly.
Let’s see....what did I find disturbing...well, the brainwashing for one...and the heresy for another.
LDS lesson titles followed by Christian comments
Lesson 5: Jesus Christ Showed Us How to Love Others (no, Christ died for our Sins)
Lesson 3: I Can Pray to Heavenly Father (you can pray to Jesus too)
Lesson 1: I Am a Child of God (we are NOT BORN Children of God, we are adopted by our faith).
Lesson 8: Sunday Is a Day to Remember Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (every day is that Day, Sunday is a day of rest).
Lesson 9: I Have a Body like Heavenly Father’s (EPIC FAIL)
Lesson 14: I Will Obey (brainwashing)
Lesson 21: Joseph Smith Saw Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ ((EPIC FAIL #2)
Lesson 22: The Book of Mormon Teaches Me about Jesus Christ (EPIC FAIL #3)
Lesson 24: I Will Follow the Prophet (blind obedience)
Lesson 25: I Belong to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (identity consolidation)
Lesson 26: I Will Be Baptized and Confirmed (more brainwashing)
Lesson 27: The Sacrament Helps Me Think about Jesus Christ (Communion is about remembering Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross).
Lesson 28: Heavenly Father Blesses Me through the Priesthood (EPIC FAIL #4).
Lesson 28: heavenly father blesses me through the priesthood
________________________________________________
The veil of the Temple has been torn in 2...
So let us come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There we will receive his mercy, and we will find grace to help us when we need it most. Hebrews 4:16
There is no need for priests any more...
He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! Hebrews 9:12-14
And God never used mere men to bless us...
What can a man or woman do for me that God cannot ???
He blesses us Himself..
I go to0 God, not man when I have a need...
SAnd when I dont have a need, I go to God anyway...
Just to worship Him and thank Him for all He does to bless me...
I worship my LORD Jesus Chrsit for shedding His precious Blood on the Cross and dying on the Cross to save me...
For taking stripes on His back to heal me...
I worship the sweet Holy Spirit, who is God, and thank Him for being my help and my guide and for bringing to my remembrance all the scriptures I need in my life and to post here for the edification of others..
Mostly I sing my praise from a heart full of love for Him for He first loved Me and died for me so that I could go to Heaven when I die and worship Him, the Lamb of God, befire the throne of God the Father.....
And have a relationship with Him during my lifetime..
Jesus loves me this I know
For my Jesus told me so..
Where is that “2 feet” graphic from?
Re storms @ surface & being forced under the waves:
I recall when Greyfoxx39 posted a link last year to the Jaredite Barge Contest Winners from New Era, Jul 1975, 13.
The New Era contest: The New Era proudly announces the winners of the Design-a-Jaredite-Barge Contest. There were many interesting and beautiful entries from many parts of the United States and from other countries. Although the three winning models shown here do not pretend to show what the Jaredite barges actually looked like, they do show thought and care in design and a firm understanding and reading of the Book of Mormon scriptures that describe the Jaredite barges.
The first place winner from this contest came to the conclusion upon reading the obvious unfine print in the BoM: “No doubt about it, there were holes in the top and the bottom." [Gee, really? The text plainly says that?]
His next assessment? Some people suggest two holes were called for because the barges sometimes turned over. In my opinion this would have been catastrophic, especially when you consider that the barge was full of people, food, water, and animals.
OK, let me get this straight. He's just read in the BoM that holes were to placed in the top & bottom of 8 vessels. So who are the lame-brain "let's read something completely different into the text" folks? (Other than Mormon apologists like Ash)...But certainly, I could see the motivation for these lame-brainers to want to change the text...I mean, after all, what an amateur shipbuilder's dream! Build vessels with stoppable holes in the bottom!
So, this kid didn't seem to stop & think. I mean, what's the only purpose a vessel could have for a hole in its bottom? Answer? The "bottom" wasn't always "bottom" -- sometimes it pitched & rolled & remained upside down underwater.
It was almost as if he didn't read Ether 2:24-25 and 6:5-7 which describes waves crashing upon the vessels; the vessels acting like a whale in the sea; mentions three times being driven to "the depths" of the sea...all of these are wave actions upon a "tight as a dish" barge & thereby is actually consistent then with a possible motivation for wanting a hole in the bottom. It's almost like a rolling vessel.
But, I had to give the kid credit for one thing many Lds adults have flunked on: He realized something obvious applicable to such a vessel no matter what (even tho he thought it'd only apply to a 2-hole-in-the-top vessel). And so the kid came up with the following observation re: "turned-over barges": ...the barges sometimes turned over. In my opinion this would have been catastrophic, especially when you consider that the barge was full of people, food, water, and animals.
Indeed! Yes, sir, exactly, right!
(Sometimes, Lds youth will back up into an obvious conclusion that's escaped so many older generation Mormons. Lds can't have it both ways: They can't on the one hand, try to make the case for a hole in the bottom of such a vessel -- and then pretend the turned "catastrophic" effects upon people, food, water & animals inside didn't play out -- if in fact, that purposeful design came about -- as Ether 2:24-25 & 6:5-7 says it did).
Can you direct me to the Department of Redundancy Department?
Sure it’s just down the hall past the constantly bash and insult the Mormons office.
Dear Dorothy Dix
Gee muy bathtub only has one hole at the bottom...
and everytime I try to have anice bubbly bath I turn on the taps and the water just runs out the hole in the bottom...
Do I need to holes in the bottom ???
Very Dirty
to=two
Dear Mormons who may be reading this thread,
If you peruse the Free Republic religion forums you will notice a pattern. There’s a group of Christians who spend a great deal of time posting from Official Mormon Sources - both the Book of Mormon as well as Mormon Prophets and Church materials.
You will also notice that many of these Christians are former Mormons who have left Mormonism and come to know the real Jesus Christ and His Gospel of Grace.
They have a passion to reach other Mormons to share what they learned about Salvation by grace and apart from human works.
Of course, they are attacked regularly by a very small group of Mormons who have zeal, but no knowledge beyond what the Mormon Church has told them. They also continually have a difficult time identifying any:
… Facts
… Evidence
… Logical support - that any reasonable person could understand that would validate their Mormon claims.
Consistently, this small group of Mormon posters are forced to face that their faith is based on little more than feelings that cannot be verified.
People deserve more than feelings.
The best they have been able to do is construct ad hominem attacks against Christians, which is always a sign that they have no facts, evidence of logical arguments. You have certainly witnessed this here many times as you read these threads, so I am not telling you anything you haven’t seen with your own eyes.
After reading both sides on this thread and others, you may very well be wondering about what you were taught when you joined the LDS church.
You also may be wondering how to resolve the lack of facts, evidence and illogical nature of Mormon claims. Many have approached those of us who are Christians asking where to find out more and some, even, to ask how to leave the Church and learn more about Christ’s Gospel of Grace.
Here are a few links to get you started in your quest to know the Biblical Christ.
http://www.irr.org/mit/default.html
http://www.exmormonsforjesus.org/
http://4mormon.org/ex-mormon.php
http://www.exmormon.org/
http://www.mormoncurtain.com/
You should also feel comfortable private freepmailing any Christians on this thread to ask questions about the concerns you have. We always do our best to directly answer your questions with facts, evidence and logical support from the Bible.
best,
ampu
Calling star Kolob.....calling star Kolob.... O Elohim Heavenly Father, we your Saints are being dissed by those who yet follow The Great and Abominable Church.
Merry Smithmas, y’all.
;^)
Transparent aluminum - why not, somebody had to invent it.
Just do what I did. Go to a Bible believing, Bible teaching church. Talk to a Pastor there, reach out to them and they will embrace you.
I am currently attending a Grace Chapel in my area. The Pastor I meet with once a week outside of Sunday services is only interested in sharing and teaching the Good News that is Jesus Christ. I'm not saying I'm done with "religion" per se, but I am done with Mormonism.
I know it can be hard for a member of a family of devout mormons to leave the LdS church, but you have to act upon what you know in your heart and mind is right.
I am now active in Grace Chapel while my family continues to attend LdS services. Is it hard? You bet. But in the end, you'll be able to look yourself in the mirror and know you made the right decision.
I have mormons tell me that even if the LdS is wrong, there are good things about it that keep them in. I've never said that LdS aren't good folks or that there are bad things about the LdS. I'd be in a heap of trouble if I did. I'm married to a mormon and know quite a few mormons. Salt of the earth folks (mainly).
I've been called a liar, a hypocrite, a slanderer, maligned, etc., because many can't wrap their arms around the fact that I chose to leave the faith and then speak of my experiences and what I learned as a mormon.
There are plenty of folks married to LdS regardless of their religion/faith. Does that mean we can't challenge the tenets of mormonISM? No. I do with my family often. Does that mean we don't love one another? No.
Do we (on FR) come across as a bit harsh sometimes? Yeah, probably. Depends on your perspective I guess. But it shouldn't in anyway detract from the fundamental message. Read to be informed, not to be offended.
As ampu said, if there are any who are interested, there are those of us here who have made the tough decision to leave and are willing to share, talk, whatever.
FRegards,
SZ
"Computer, computer?"
Read to be informed, not offended. Excellent advice.
I've read a tremendous amount about Mormonism direct from Mormons -- and a good chunk of it "in context." [And even many of my "out of context" quotes comes from Mormon church sources -- meaning if they are "out of context" -- then blame the Mormon church for not citing more context in the quotes they are lifting]
My point in mentioning this is that when I read Mormonism, I can't help but be offended by much of what their leaders have said. But I'd say the "80/20 rule" applies here:
By reading to inform (what Szonian has wisely advocated here), I am informed 80% of the time & provoked perhaps 20%.
If Lds could keep to a similar ratio, and at least have their motivation be to read to be informed (which is what mine is...it's as I'm reading to be informed that I'm sometimes provoked beyond that), then we can better understand what others are saying.
As far as "coming across a bit harsh," well, that can't be helped with legalism. Jesus was more than a "bit harsh" sounding at least to the Pharisees.
Hence, we comfort the afflicted (the down & out & those who know they are "poor in spirit"; and afflict the legalistic comfortable.
I applaud the time you took to write it.
Sensible.
Straightforward.
A good-faith challenge.
The best apologetic yet to PD spam.
I referenced you in this post (#47) but failed to ping you.
Here's another one from the "Follow the prophet" lesson:
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