Posted on 08/20/2022 1:17:13 PM PDT by euram
CROW AGENCY — At Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument, artifacts from the past are popping up more frequently. Visitors found a Civil War General Service cuff button just last week.
The park memorializes the last stand the Lakota and Cheyenne tribes took against the U.S. Army’s 7th Calvary to preserve their way of life.
(Excerpt) Read more at ktvq.com ...
Really? No wounded, no American soldiers surrendering?
That is a pretty neat battle when every one of the Americans neatly dies while engaging the enemy.
“At a distance, the stripped bodies of Custer’s men had resembled nothing so much as white boulders. Up close, they were truly ghastly to behold. “The men . . . were . . . scalped and horribly mutilated,” one soldier recalled. “There the bodies lay, mostly naked, and scattered over a field maybe half a mile square.” As Captain Clifford surveyed the battlefield and saw the terrible aftermath of violent death, torture, and mutilation, waves of nausea simmered in his gut: “It is sickening to look at the stripped bodies. Here a hand gone, and here a foot or a head . . . gashes cut in all parts of the body; eyes gouged out, noses and ears cut off, and skulls crushed in.” Another officer recalled that “eyes had been torn from their sockets, and hands . . . and arms, legs, and noses had been wrenched off. Many had their flesh cut in strips the entire length of their bodies, and there were others whose limbs were closely perforated with bullets, showing that the torture had been inflicted while the wretched victims were still alive.”
Indians didn’t have war crime trials or even just ‘war crimes’ and the horrors they did weren’t done by renegade men or psychopaths, it wasn’t an aberration that would go down in history as a shame.
The Indians would bring captives into their town so that their families and the entire community could share in and enjoy the days-long torture of people.
The Indian horrors beyond description were celebrated and honored by them and were entertainment and training for the little children and their girlfriends and wives and grandmothers, and their mayors and councilmen.
You know quite well what I was saying. No, no prisoners, wounded soldiers fell into the hands of the Indians and then were tortured to death. In fact the last part of Custer’s people who were killed appear to have dismounted and formed a prone firing line in some broken ground on the nw sided of the battlefield and fought to the last man. All remains were in rough firing line and expended cartridge cases were scattered among the bodies. Wise ass remarks like yours are not appreciated. There are more than enough really stupid posts on this thread as is.
Who cares other than anal retentive weekend wannabe spell checkers who have nothing else to type about other than spelling........Sheesh!
Get yourself out of the basement and find yourself a girlfriend of ANY age.........
This was the same way Europeans behaved when they were tribesmen in the forests and plains. Tacitus describes how the Germans tortured captured Romans after Varro’s defeat.
“”””Little Big Horn was a battle. Ltc Custer and five companies of the 7th were killed to the last man fighting, not being massacred.””””
This sounds like a real massacre, not collateral damage by a renegade unit at the enemy’s supply/support system.
“Another officer recalled that “eyes had been torn from their sockets, and hands . . . and arms, legs, and noses had been wrenched off. Many had their flesh cut in strips the entire length of their bodies, and there were others whose limbs were closely perforated with bullets, showing that the torture had been inflicted while the wretched victims were still alive.”
VG Ha Ha No they were rotary aviation, much more adapted to the mounted plains Indian raiding operational style. We even our attack after warrior tribes.
That has nothing to do with what our families were having to deal with so recently.
No, it is how it is fighting tribalized people. The only captives Afghans took in the retreat from Kabul were a few they thought had value for ransom for the brit and Indian units were killed to the last man, no quarter asked or expected. Same in the Sudan and Somalia. The only survivors of Plunkett’s command (bigger than Custer’s) were some Indian NCO’s who got away while the Mad Mullah’s people were distracted collecting loot and stripping bodies for worthwhile items and specie.
I beg your pardon. What are you talking about?
Certainly not millions of North American Indians were ever around but you are correct that diseases brought by European contact did kill many more natives than all the fighting put together. The real massive die off was in Mexico where the Cocoliztli disease that made it’s last epidemic appearance in Mexico in the 1730 period killed many millions of the natives of about all settled tribes. It has now been identified an enteric strain brought by the Spanish. It was also deadly, but less so, to Europeans killing something like a fifth of all the Spanish in Mexico during the first great plague in the 16th century.
One of history’s worst epidemics may have been caused by a common microbe
DNA from skeletons suggests that 16th century native Mesoamericans had salmonella
16 JAN 2018BYANGUS CHEN
Excavated structure of the Grand Plaza at Teposcolula-Yucundaa
Researchers excavated 24 skeletons out of a mid–16th century mass grave in this plaza. The ruins are part of an ancient city in southern Mexico. CHRISTINA WARINNER. IMAGE COURTESY OF THE TEPOSCOLULA-YUCUNDAA ARCHAEOLOGICAL PROJECT
The symptoms were unlike anything the doctors of the time had seen. Victims turned yellow from jaundice, and blood ran from their ears and noses. They had hallucinations and agonizing convulsions. They died in days. Aztecs called it the cocoliztli, meaning pestilence in the local Nahuatl language. “The cocoliztli appeared from almost nowhere. Nobody knew what it was,” says Rodolfo Acuña-Soto, a historical epidemiologist at the National Autonomous University of Mexico in Mexico City.
Even today, nobody knows what exactly was responsible for the epidemic, which first appeared in Mexico, then called New Spain, in the 16th century and killed an estimated 45% of the entire native population. Historical records suggest it was some type of hemorrhagic fever—like Ebola—but DNA evidence published this week suggests the culprit might have been salmonella—a common food-borne illness—brought by European colonizers.
The evidence was tucked in the teeth of 29 skeletons unearthed from the ruins of an ancient city archaeologists call Teposcolula Yucundaa in the Oaxaca region of Mexico. The main inhabitants were Mixtec people, a distinct group from the Aztecs of central Mexico. Twenty-four skeletons came from a cemetery dating to the first cocoliztli outbreak in 1545, and five came from a cemetery roughly 100 years older. Pathogens that ravaged the body at its death can be entombed within the tooth’s inner chamber and detected years later, says Kirsten Bos, a molecular paleobiologist at the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History in Jena, Germany, and an author on the study.
Bos and her colleagues drilled into the skeletons’ teeth and extracted DNA from that inner chamber. Once they had sequenced all the DNA, the team began comparing strands against a large database of modern bacterial pathogens. Their analysis matched the DNA fragments to Salmonella enterica, they report in Nature Ecology & Evolution. This type of salmonella, paratyphi C, can cause enteric fever, a serious bacterial infection also known as typhoid or paratyphoid fever. Today, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates enteric fever-causing salmonella results in more than 21 million cases globally and fewer than 6000 illnesses in the United States every year.
The team found salmonella in 10 of the remains dating to the outbreak, but not in any of the five skeletons predating European contact. Plus, archaeological work from 2017 found the same type of salmonella in an 800-year-old Norwegian skeleton. That helps the argument that Europeans carried the bug to Mexico, potentially through livestock or human carriers. Once in the Americas, the bug would have leached into local food and water sources from feces or vomit from sick individuals, says Hendrik Poinar, an ancient DNA researcher at McMaster University in Hamilton, Canada, who was not involved with the study. “The work is very good. We’ve been hoping for a while to get molecular insight” into the famed cultural, economic, and biological exchange between the New World and the Old World, he says.
It’s harder to tell whether the salmonella alone killed these people, Poinar says. “I’m buying that it likely contributed to this epidemic. Is that what they died of? I’d be careful of saying that.” Perhaps salmonella was simply one of multiple infections that together became deadlier and caused cocoliztli, he says.
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Historical descriptions of the cocoliztli certainly don’t sound like salmonella, Acuña-Soto says. “The paper is great. We [now] know there’s an outbreak of salmonella,” he says. “But never in history have I heard of salmonella doing something like cocoliztli with the bleeding, the jaundice, the spread.”
But Bos think salmonella still might be behind the cocoliztli, saying that in order for her team to detect the pathogen, these people must have had “massive” amounts of the bacteria in their blood. “When you get a very advanced bacterial infection, you can get bleeding from orifices and symptoms very similar to a hemorrhagic fever,” she says. “The historical records match a hemorrhagic fever, but we shouldn’t be too dismissive on what biologic agent it really was.”
It’s difficult to say why the cocoliztli was so deadly for the native peoples, but the indigenous population may also have been suffering from malnourishment as a result of a great drought that afflicted the region at the time, Acuña-Soto says.
If the bug wasn’t present in the Americas before European arrival, the locals may have lacked a strong natural immune response to the disease and made them more susceptible. Whatever the pathogen, it swept through the region like a storm. At the time, historian Fray Juan de Torquemada wrote, “In the year 1576, a great mortality and pestilence that lasted for more than a year overcame the Indians … the place we know as New Spain was left almost empty.”
Good post and thanks for some serious knowledge. Wasn’t there a 2 wave mass die off in South America before the Spanish arrived? I vaguely remember reading about it an the fact that the SA natives were in serious decline before Europeans arrived. One of the real knowledge GGG posters would know if you don’t. The numbers of North American natives range from 1.8 to 4.0 million but I always thought that was low. East coast could easily support those numbers.
You were posting about ancient Rome and Germanic tribes which was baffling, it sure had nothing to do with what our families were facing only 150 years ago here in America.
So Indians can’t massacre because they are Indians, I never dreamed I would run into that idea.
Same historic pattern. Tribal people fight that way to destroy the body and soul of enemies. Quit the bloody shirt waving it is tiresome.
J—— you are dumb.
For some reason I thought you might have some information on pre European mass deaths in South America. It led to a major decline in the power base there.
Quite an attitude you have towards our Army and our people.
Both in Mexico and Peru? I will have to try find something about that. Mexico had suffered a long drought killing many just before Cortes came. This is weakened Indian resistence more first to a huge small pox epidemic then the waves of Cocolitzi. A severe famine in western Europe just before the Bubonic plague had a similar effect. Small pox had arrived before the Pizarro brothers in what is now Ecuador and northern Peru wreaking havoc. It came overland from contact that Indians had with Spanish in Panama and then the infection being passed along trade routes to Inca region.
I'm pissed. Someone in the Lakota and Cheyenne tribes has my great great uncle Myles Kehoe’s scalp and I want it back
Major U.S. 7th Cav. Hoorah!
I also want reparations.
I will Sioux.
5.56mm
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