Posted on 09/19/2015 6:13:19 PM PDT by SoFloFreeper
There are two issues: Can you know that you're a Christian?, and Can a true Christian lose his salvation?
1. Are you a Christian? The Bible provides several tests, including:
* John 3:3: "...Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.""among many others, demonstrating it is possible to know that one is indeed a true Christian.* 1 John 5:11-12a: "And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life..."
* Romans 10:9: "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
2. Can a true Christian lose his salvation? The Bible argues he cannot: once saved, always saved.
* John 10:27-29: "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."
Not even you can snatch yourself away from Him.* John 5:24: ""I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."
It's past-tense: "he has crossed", he "has eternal life," which by definition is eternal and cannot be lost.* Romans 8:1-2: "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death."
In Christ = no condemnation
By the way, a week or two ago I offered to demonstrate this doctrine of eternal security to another Catholic on this forum, in order to encourage her, and encountered in return as much unwarranted venom and vitriol as I've ever seen; so I hope you'll receive this as being born solely out of genuine helpfulness and concern. To the extent that my presentation here is inadequate, I'm quite sure an online search into the doctrine of eternal security will prove fruitful for you. Indeed, it's a shame to be left in lifelong suspense about the answer to life's biggest question, when the Lord anticipated and forestalled that suspense by providing such clear answers in His Word.
All that said, why this preoccupation with suicide?
[[No? I’m a Catholic was taught that if a Catholic committed suicide their soul would be damned to Hell.]]
there’s no biblical basis for that- I would invite you to do some online research into ‘Christians and Suicide’ and look at links that are not catholic to find out why-
Did you know God granted Sampson the request to commit suicide? (Sampson was saved, and we know this because God does NOT listen to unsaved people nor answer them EXCEPT when they become saved)-
This is just one example, however, there are better explanations why suicide is not a ‘mortal sin’- the only ‘mortal sin’ as it were is blasphemy against the Holy spirit- and ONLY an unsaved person can commit this-
Wrong! The Lord did not always teach in parables, contrary to assertions of some, and in His 46 parables in no place did the Lord name real persons, as He does here with Abraham and Lazarus, while mercifully excluding the name of the 3rd individual.
In addition, parables used known physical realities (pearl, etc,) as corresponding to spiritual realities (the kingdom of God, etc.). But if the Lord was speaking in a parable about a man who died and was in torments, then for the first and only time He would be using science fiction, for according to annihilationists there is no postmortem ongoing conscious torment.
Annihilationists try to force this account as speaking of Lazarus representing the Gentiles, and the rich man as being the Jews, but besides Luke rarely mentioning Jews, l (not simply the Pharisees) like John does, being in torments commencing at death hardly represents annihilation or anything the Jews realize apart from Christ.
In addition, Abraham's Bosom was not Heaven, but Scripture speaks of Christ setting free the elect who died before Him so to be with Him in paradise, the third heaven, after His death, thus OT saints appearing to many, since the blood of animals could not take away sin, and the way into the holy of holies in Heaven.
Meanwhile, Scripture speaks of Hell delivering up the dead which were in them for the final judgment.
[[Not a good analogy since the judge did not design and create me.]]
It absolutely is a good analogy because both are judges that we can do nothing about- they are what they are- and it does not good to whine about rules when WE are the ones who have a CHOICE to either obey them or not- It doesn’t matter if God created you or not- or if a judge created you or not- what matters is that there ARE rules- the question is are we going to man up and take responsibility, or are we going to stomp our feet and get angry at the law enforcers?
Bttt
[[Souls in Hell certainly would choose to go to Heaven as well as back to earth if they could, and would welcome death, if it is TOO LATE!!!]]
no sir they will not- The rich man did NOT desire to go to heaven, He simply wanted people to tell his relatives to choose another path
The rich man was in hades, not hell- These people have not been judged yet, and were awaiting judgement- then they are thrown into hell
Matt. 8:12, “but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
nothing about repentance or wanting to cross into Heaven
[[They now have the kind of heart that would accept Christ,]]
To say people become contrite, and would choose heaven IF given the opportunity when in hell is to suggest that God is an unjust God who over punishes and shows no mercy when people finally ‘recognize the mistake they’ve made’.
There is NO indication in God’s word that this is so- There is however every indication that they will be so furious that they will gnash their teeth in anger and rebellion against God- the rich man only asked for pity, not for salvation
The bible NEVER teaches there is a desire for repentence in Hell- unsaved people go there because they hate God and will NOT obey Him- they go to their father the Devil who also hates God and who also rails against God.
The rich man STILL wanted to dictate how things should be by asking that the rules be suspended for him- that does not sound like humbled, non contentious- but rather continued disobedience
While it is true every knee WILL bow, there is no indication that they like what they are doing- But rather they do so because they must because truth is truth-
[[Souls in Hell certainly would choose to go to Heaven ]]
There is no biblical basis for this- there is a biblical basis for the idea that sinners go to hell willingly, and that their sin continues on for eternity because God is NOT an unjust God-
rev 19 (v. 9)...They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds (v. 11), and that Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great (v. 21).
[[Read what Dr. James White of Alpha & Omega Ministries said in a sermon titled “The Carmen Christi” at Arann Reformed Baptist Church earlier this year(around 47:15 mark):
…right now God restrains the madness of man, but once the restraint is taken off in hell itself, what torture must it be to stand upon the parapets of hell screaming your hatred of God for eternity, knowing there is nothing you can do any longer, to in any way hurt God or his creation. People say “we are going to be partying in hell”. No. You are going to be alone. Alone with your hatred and self destruction.
You don’t stop sinning. That’s why the punishment doesn’t stop. And I am convinced that if you were to reach into the pit of hell, 10,000 years into eternity, grab a smoking soul, bring it out and sit it down, and say “Here’s your choice: either love the Lord your God with your heart, soul, mind and strength and worship Him in purity or turn around and walk right back in to where you are” every single one would turn around, spit at you and dive right back into where they were.]]
and let me just add, that there are rules for a reason- not because God and judges want to impede on our fun- but rather because some of the people’s idea of ‘fun’ impedes morally on other people’s rights- and harms them- hence the universal moral laws-
God is fully righteous- He is pure- His very nature is purity- Where He is the can be no sin- hence the NEED for sinners to call upon Him for Salvation to wipe away all our sins
The GOOD news is that He has invited us ALL to accept His Son to wipe away all our sins so that we may stand in His Holy and Pure Presence-
He in His mercy however, Gives us free will- otherwise we truly would NOT have a choice, but would be forced to ‘love’ Him and accept Him- but it would be a FALSE love, because a TRUE love entails choice-
A man who has the CHOICE to step out on his wife, BUT CHOOSES not to shows true love for his wife- He shows that he loves her above all other women- IF he were forced to love her above all other women- don’t you think he would develop a growing hatred for her? A resentment?- Rather- TRUE love NEEDS the freedom of choice in order to freely express itself
God doesn’t coerce anyone to accept Him- We know the ‘rules’ and make a free choice- We know WHY the ruels must be as they are- and we either accept that reality, or we rebel and shake out fists in His face and get angry at Him unjustifiably
you misconstrue the God of the Bible.
He gave his only Son for salvation. If that isn’t love on the grandest scale, then love doesn’t exist.
Having wrestled many a time with this issue I believe I can fairly say that the prospect of an impending personal doom CAN get someone to blindly call out to God, who can then engage with the person in compassion quite independently of the source of the doom message.
That’s something that due to pride we can’t swallow in our own humanity. I am no exception.
An especially challenging situation can be posed when you get the phenomenon we know as the hellfire preacher. His message is unbalanced and can make it easy to confuse a providential God with substantial (not just permissive) mercies with an entity whose essential strength lies in his power to threaten. God is larger than situations like this, and can bring in a “more accurate” view of the faith and disabuse such confusions in the end. But the preacher himself might not be much nearer to a reward than the devil is, and God’s chief work in the life of those who are moved through the instrumentality of his message is to persuade them that no, this is not where His heart is.
I don’t see Christ’s biblically documented conduct as being an actual exception to that. Various individual warnings were given by Him to various individual persons, who were also by circumstance positioned to hear the love side of the gospel from the Loving Master personally. If that side is not ever present, I daresay it ceases to be gospel. It becomes just another religion painting Jesus in monster colors.
Understand all that, Bob. I recognize it is His game and He can do as He pleases. I am just pointing out your judge analogy has to factor in that God is judging us for being sinful and yet God designed us this way. that’s all
Without the municifent ministry of same, it becomes yet another act of pride... and God does not act on pride.
The condition of being eternally angry at God is the condition of hell. In a real sense its occupants had a hand in architecting its miseries. They denied His love access to their hearts and left the only thing possible as an alternative — the enslaving charm of Satan.
Where in scripture do you find that? Adam and Eve were not made sinful, they made themselves so when they disobeyed God.
BTW, and excellent showing of the verse “There is nothing new under the sun.” Your contention is just like Adam’s, when he sinned he blamed God as well.
Adam and Eve did not make themselves .. anything. They were designed by God and were designed susceptible to temptation and sin. Apparently God did not want robots so he gave man free will which includes the ability to disobey and sin. God created everything, right? So the ability to sin was allowed in God's design for man. In addition since God is sovereign God knew in advance that man would sin. He also knew man would need a savior and sent Christ.
My issue is not with God. It's His game and He can do what he wants. We have nowhere to go except Christ and His mercy. We are not meant to know the details of how all this works right now. All we need to know right now is that we need a relationship wit Christ
It's not that difficult to understand. God created us. We choose to reject Him for as little as a piece of fruit. And still we continue to blame Him.
Created sinless, made themselves sinful. To argue otherwise negates your free will discourse. Being omniscient God knew they would sin, but that didn’t cause them to sin. That they and we manage on our own.
You simply cannot say that he did not want to go to Heaven, at least implicitly, and the fact is that Abraham had a reason for saying that there was a great gulf fixed btwn the two realms that prevented crossing. If no one wanted to be with Abraham then why mention it?
And it is clear that the rich man wanted relief, and if even a drop of water would give such as per his humble request, then how much more would a place where there is neither hunger nor thirst, though in his state he could not desire it.
It is to such basic desire to escape wrath that the Lord appealed to in advising us to cut off whatever would send us to Hell. Therefore it can be said that the lost in Hell would want Heaven as much as a person who was motivated to repent due to the warnings alone of unquenchable fire. How much more the reality.
The rich man was in hades, not hell- These people have not been judged yet, and were awaiting judgement- then they are thrown into hell
Wrong. Hades is Hell (which, from sheol, can also means just the grave), from which souls are cast into the lake of fire after formal judgment. (Rv 20:13)
Matt. 8:12, “but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” nothing about repentance or wanting to cross into Heaven
Actually, weeping and gnashing of teeth is associated with the realization of what they missed out on, which presupposes they desired it.
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. (Luke 13:28)
To say people become contrite, and would choose heaven IF given the opportunity when in hell is to suggest that God is an unjust God who over punishes and shows no mercy when people finally ‘recognize the mistake they’ve made’.
Wrong, as God would be perfectly just in showing no mercy, and is under no obligation to do so, or to grant repentance even in this life (God could have brought Sodom to repentance). And while God does promise salvation to all who call upon Christ in repentant faith, yet this pertains to this life, which is what God presents as the place where one's eternity is settled, if not their degree of reward and punishment.
There is NO indication in God’s word that this is so- There is however every indication that they will be so furious that they will gnash their teeth in anger and rebellion against God- the rich man only asked for pity, not for salvation
Wrong, as their is no indication in God’s word that they will be so furious that they will gnash their teeth in anger and rebellion against God, but which you are reading into Scripture.
Instead of raging against God as if they were being unjustly punished, the Lord describes the rich man as humbly accepting his punishment, only daring to ask for a drop of water to cool his tongue in his torments.
In addition, rather than gnashing their teeth in anger and rebellion against God, what the Lord indicates is that the gnashing is due to the pain one realizes, as the Lord shall "cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:50)
In addition, Rv. 5 describes all creation glorifying God, which as including even the devil, would be due to belatedly confessing what is fact, but was rejected on earth.
The bible NEVER teaches there is a desire for repentence in Hell- unsaved people go there because they hate God and will NOT obey Him- they go to their father the Devil who also hates God and who also rails against God.
Rather, why earnestly desire repentance for others while not desiring it yourself? For Scripture clearly shows the rich man pleaded that his brethren be motivated to repentance. The fact is that the bible never teaches there is no desire for repentance in Hell, and instead teaches men as the rich man plead others be moved to it, and thus it implies they wish that would be an option for them. But instead they are hope-less.
The rich man STILL wanted to dictate how things should be by asking that the rules be suspended for him- that does not sound like humbled, non contentious- but rather continued disobedience
Wrong, and frankly absurd, as earnestly desiring mercy is not dictating and being contentious in continued disobedience !, while he did not even know the rules, but pleaded if perhaps it was possible. And was without contention at the replies. According to your reasoning, the women who pleaded with the Lord to cast out the demons from her daughter was dictating and being contentious in continued disobedience since she had no right to ask for such.
While it is true every knee WILL bow, there is no indication that they like what they are doing- But rather they do so because they must because truth is truth-
There is no indication that they resist what they are doing, instead of belatedly confessing what they know is Truth, in regret, not rage. While Scripture indicates souls are ignorant in Hell (b4 the final judgment) of the degree of their sins, and thus plead that they did mighty works, Scripture shows the rich man as asking for mercy, even for others, and does not translate into raging against God, as on earth. And it is also hardly reasonable to think God would leave souls raging at him in ignorance for eternity.
rev 19 (v. 9)...They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds (v. 11), and that Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great (v. 21).
Which is your error, that of assuming men souls in this realm like the rich man was will be like raging at God in the next out of perceived injustice. Instead, we see a man pleading for mercy for himself others, without contention at the replies.
Read what Dr. James White of Alpha & Omega Ministries said
Which is who and what you are following here, but while his reasoning is understandable, it simply does not follow what we do seen in Scripture, but is reading into it. Which instead shows a man desiring mercy and repentance for others, and gnashing of teeth being due to the torment of the fire.
Yet when one even charges the rich man in Hell with acting as a contentious dictator then there is little hope for reasonable exchange.
When addressing the masses, he only spoke in parables.
Matthew 13:34: Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.
Mark 4:34: He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything.
The story of Lazarus and the rich man was told to the masses. It was a parable.It is not the only parable in the Bible that used "real" names.
[[You simply cannot say that he did not want to go to Heaven, at least implicitly, and the fact is that Abraham had a reason for saying that there was a great gulf fixed btwn the two realms that prevented crossing. If no one wanted to be with Abraham then why mention it? ]]
Please point out In the verse where he said he wanted to go to heaven? Had he wished to, don’t you think he would have asked at the one opportunity he had to ask?
The chasm statement is stating that even if one should want to- they can not- because there’s a chasm- that’s it-
[[And it is clear that the rich man wanted relief,]]
Yep- He selfishly wanted God to suspend his punishment for some relief
[[It is to such basic desire to escape wrath that the Lord appealed to in advising us to cut off whatever would send us to Hell. Therefore it can be said that the lost in Hell would want Heaven as much as a person who was motivated to repent due to the warnings alone of unquenchable fire. How much more the reality.]]
Oh my word- now we’re really reaching!
[[Actually, weeping and gnashing of teeth is associated with the realization of what they missed out on, which presupposes they desired it.]]
Sure, verse please? The only ‘sadness’ they will have is because they thought God would forgive them despite them rejecting Him-
[[Wrong, as God would be perfectly just in showing no mercy, and is under no obligation to do so, or to grant repentance even in this life]]
I guess you missed the whole point-
[[Wrong, as their is no indication in God’s word that they will be so furious that they will gnash their teeth in anger and rebellion against God,]]
there is NO love in hell- NONE- Hell is NOT a place where love can thrive or even exist- There is NO God there, NO Holy spirit, and nothing but unrepentant hatred of God
Hell is darkness, it is an absence of love and a place for people with an absence of love-
[[Instead of raging against God as if they were being unjustly punished, the Lord describes the rich man as humbly accepting his punishment,]]
I’m sorry, I missed the part where he was ‘humble’ could you point htat out please?
[[Lord indicates is that the gnashing is due to the pain one realizes, as the Lord shall “cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”]]
Ok- again- I missed where the verse indicates that- When one gnashes teeth, it’s generally in extreme anger
[[Wrong, and frankly absurd, as earnestly desiring mercy is not dictating and being contentious in continued disobedience ]]
Oh for crying out loud- now it has to be ‘continual’ in order to be considered sin? What part of the field are you going to move the goalpost to next?
[[Which is your error, that of assuming men souls in this realm like the rich man was will be like raging at God in the next out of perceived injustice.]]
Don’t put words in my mouth- I never said ANYTHING about ‘perceived injustice’- I have rather consistently said man is in a state of complete separation from God and their sin nature is now unleashed and unrestrained- and their rage will fester against God along with the rage of their master Satan whom they went to willingly- There will be NOTHING in them that will desire God- NOTHING-
There is NOTHING in sinful man on this earth alive that desires God- NOTHING- it is only the work of the Holy Spirit that draws a sin loving self loving person of perdition to God
Are you suggesting that the holy spirit will be present in Hell convicting men and women COMPLETELY given over to sin of their sins? How can one be sorry in hell when there is NO influence of good whatsoever in Hell?
The ONLY reason a sinner on earth turns to God is because God compels them- these people will NEVER go to God o n their own-
Concerning the rich man- this very likely is a parable- the rich man would NOT have a tongue, or lips- there is no indication the body is restored to those who are unsaved
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