Posted on 04/17/2014 11:35:37 AM PDT by SkyPilot
Lady’s perfectly WORLDLY.
There’s a theme all through there about a God that cares and a humanity that disobeys. If the world is one’s chosen orientation point then one has to ignorantly “dis” the scriptures in this fashion.
Indeed.
I’m not surprised by this at all. Bono has been very consistent about about this over many years
I’m trying to think if I’ve ever known a Jew who was truly confident in a relaxed way in their beliefs. Most of them are either secular beyond all description or they have an underlying “tension” about them when it comes to their faith and interactions with Christians.
Some day the issue of Jesus Christ will be settled between Christians, Jews and all people. Personally, I have a relaxed confidence in my belief on the subject. I can’t really say that for any of Jews that I’ve known.
He's being asked a direct, YES or NO question, and is refusing to answer. Of course that is being cagey. But I'm not blaming him for it: crucifixion's a nasty way to go. But if he's not trying to avoid the death sentence, the simplest thing in the world would be to say, YES, I am the Son of God. Because that is what he was accused of claiming.
Now, as you’ve acknowledged, you believe He is, for all intents and purposes, a man-made invention piled upon an actual historical figure...my question is this: Where’s the flaw? Where’s the human error in His character? Where’s the lie, the ulterior motive, the shading of the truth, the malice aforethought, the lust, the greed, the avarice, the streak of pride that would, should, must accompany any human character, as all humans are flawed? Where’s the error? Where’s the sin? Where’s the point in “the myth” that indicates this is simply a human creation drummed up to provide people with someone to believe in?
I have little idea what character flaws he may have had. We'll never know; he died 2000 years ago. I just think he was a man positioning himself for a dangerous job: that of united Jews to rise up against the Romans in order to re-establish an independent kingdom of Israel. He may have been a nice guy, a bad guy, a proud man... who knows. When we read the Bible, we can't really say we are reading what actually happened. We are reading the accounts of the followers of his disciples, 60-80 years later. We can only try to infer what he meant to them from what stories they told. The stories suggest that his followers believed him to be a potential king of Israel. Now, the followers of his followers must have come to a different conclusion, given that he did not come back and save them from Rome. So they would have to take the stories of the disciples and reinterpret them to explain his never coming back.
I’m sure you’ve found yourself dealing with some of those same blemishes in the stories you’ve taught. Where’s the blemish on Christ?
It's hard to say. If I were to try and write a characterization paper on him, though, I'd probably focus on Judas' comments just before the betrayal, and note that Judas was dissatisfied with Jesus getting his feet massaged with some expensive oil, and commented that it should have been sold and the money given to the poor. This suggests to me that as he grew more famous, Jesus may have become less aesthetic and more materialistic. Also, his comment to the woman whose daughter was sick ("I am here for the lost lambs of God") and dismissive ("Go home, your daughter is healed" -- of course we never see her again so chances are he was just blowing her off) suggest a gathering arrogance. But again, I don't know. He died a long time ago.
That's fine. But it seems odd that this little story means that, then, the only person capable of being the Salvation of the World must be descended from the guy who covered for his brother over a cup.
It would really help if you, or SOMEONE here, could show me where in the Old Testament there is a clearly stated prophecy that the Messiah would NOT be merely king of the Jews, but would be saving all of humanity from sin and hell. That would really, really be helpful.
1. What exactly is the role of the Messiah according to Old Testament prophecy, and where does it say that?
2. Exactly which Old Testament prophecies has Jesus demonstrably already completely fulfilled?
Now, note that I said demonstrably. This saving of souls as hinted by Passover has not been proven, and won't be until you die and find yourself floating above the clouds and God is there, and you're looking around, and oh, look, my Grandma is here and my ex is not. It's all true! Until that day, it's just faith.
But if we could start with someone addressing one or both of my questions (rather than calling me a Tar-Baby behind my back) we'd get a lot farther.
>> “Exactly which Old Testament prophecies has Jesus demonstrably already completely fulfilled?” <<
.
This has already been explained to you.
He fulfilled the three Spring Feasts, Passover, First Fruits, and Pentecost.
Of these Passover is the primary fulfillment, since it was the sacrifice of his own sinless life to pay our debt of sin. He was our own personal Passover lamb for all time.
.
No, no, this has not been EXPLAINED. You merely stated this and told me to go read the Bible. I am asking you to tell me in simple language WHAT are these three prophecies and where in the Old Testament does one find them. If you cannot put it in simple words, at least have the grace to do what others have done and tell me where in the Old Testament to find them. If you know, that is.
I’ve told you everything.
I can only conclude that this knowledge is not for you; that it is not given for you to know.
John 10:17-18
For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."
28 Then they led Jesus from Caiaphas to the Praetorium, and it was early morning. But they themselves did not go into the Praetorium, lest they should be defiled, but that they might eat the Passover. 29 Pilate then went out to them and said, “What accusation do you bring against this Man?”
30 They answered and said to him, “If He were not an evildoer, we would not have delivered Him up to you.”
31 Then Pilate said to them, “You take Him and judge Him according to your law.”
Therefore the Jews said to him, “It is not lawful for us to put anyone to death,” 32 that the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled which He spoke, signifying by what death He would die.
33 Then Pilate entered the Praetorium again, called Jesus, and said to Him, “Are You the King of the Jews?”
34 Jesus answered him, “Are you speaking for yourself about this, or did others tell you this concerning Me?”
35 Pilate answered, “Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered You to me. What have You done?”
36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”
37 Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?”
Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”
38 Pilate said to Him, “What is truth?” And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews, and said to them, “I find no fault in Him at all.
LOL!!! That's what I thought. You don't even want to say where these prophecies are in the Old Testament. Either you don't know, or you don't think they'll hold up to examination.
MY dear Theophilus...
Ooops; HE did not.
Why do you think you are perfect?
Thank you! But this particular scene does not take place in Pilates' court. This is in a temple in Jerusalem, according to verses 22-23. Then, in 39-40 it says they tried to arrest him but he ran away to Jordan. So he seems willing enough to say he's the Son of God... until he's directly asked by Pilates while on trial. Then he won't say it, which is why Pilates doesn't get involved.
Hasn't this strawman been knocked down already?
I picked the user name to remind myself to be polite. It’s about manners.
I think you are having fun; setting these things up!
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