Skip to comments.Pope Francis: Catholic Church must focus beyond "small-minded rules"
Posted on 09/19/2013 2:46:04 PM PDT by SkyPilot
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LMSM is cheering their own interpretation of what they THINK he means.
Hate the sin; love the sinner.
May I ask what religion you are?
What Pope Francis said IN CONTEXT: “..in small-minded rules. The most important thing is the first proclamation: Jesus Christ has saved you. .”
Far different from what the lib media told us he said, when we put it in context.
I’m sooooo disappointed some people think the HEADLINE that the liberal media puts on an article is what the Pope said.
You would think that FReepers especially, would know better since they’ve seen what LMSM does to conservative politicians.
God is love. God is kind. God is merciful.
So do you really think he would punish an atheist, who never knew Jesus, through no fault of their own?
Of course, if we know Jesus, and reject him, that’s a different story.
God’s love is all those things but it can only accept one end goal and still stay love. Someone who refuses all God’s love to the end because they think it is so wonderful to refuse to countenance the idea of God (how many children are atheists? this is usually a conceit that is schooled into youth) will be left with hate. And that is what hell is. It is a realm of hate. If the approaches to hell that God arranges for such a person within this life are not enough to get the person to call upon God, nothing will be enough. I think they’ll prefer the idea of staying in that place to the idea of ever being in heaven, so enthralled with hate at the God of heaven they will be.
What “religion” are YOU?
Pilot, as most of us “Crazy Evangelicals,” seems to have a faith, not a religion. A faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior.
This is a very good question, and one that usually comes up in most conversations about Christ and Salvation.
There are Biblical foundations that must be stated in answer to your question:
The Bible says that we are to spread the Good News (the "Great Commission").
1. The only was to be forgiven for our sins and to escape Hell itself is through Christ - John 14:6. When people say they are "saved", what do they mean? Saved from?? Hell. Before I accepted Christ, melted my will to Him, and acknowledged who He is, I knew I was going to Hell. Not long after my conversion, I knew I was going to His Kingdom. (1 John 5:13)
2. From what the Scriptures say, I believe that every person has an opportunity to repent and to come to faith. We are in the "Church Age" - meaning the door is wide open through Jesus Christ. What did the righteous and the heroes of the Old Testament do? Is Isaiah in Hell because Christ had not been born yet? Of course not - Noah and his family were saved by FAITH (Ephesians 2:8), and that is what saves us today, faith in Christ alone, and His Grace is sufficient.
3. You need to read Romans chapter 1 and chapter 2 in their entirety. It is perhaps the greatest statement on doctrine and philosophy ever written. "For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse..." (Romans 1:1920). Therefore, we know that even gazing out at the sun rise today and seeing a small bird testifies to the Glory of God, and His Creation. Mankind rejects God, every second of every day, despite God making it plain to them. The Law of God is written in the heart of every human being, from the tribe on the Pacific island to the man who is a hardened atheist on Long Island and passes by 14 churches each day on his way to work. "They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them." Romans 2:15
So, we battle Satan and demonic forces that deceive us, and we battle God, but still He holds open the door. I do not believe anyone will be condemned for not hearing about Christ, but they will be condemned for violating the Law and the standard that God imprinted on every human heart. God does not want anyone to perish, but He desires all come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). So when it says in Romans 2:16 that "God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my Gospel" we know that God will give every person a fair hearing, but we never use the excuse that people who never heard of Jesus have a free pass.
That is what the pope told atheists - they have a free pass and they can follow their own conscious.
His statement (and it wasn't "twisted" or "out of context") was the most irresponsible thing I have ever heard a Christian leader say.
I am not driven by "religion", I get up and live day to day for a person - Jesus Christ.
Religion always let me down, because religion is a man made institution.
I worship at a Bible believing church, but I have worshiped at many of them during my frequent travels. If they are grounded in Jesus and the Bible, then I am welcomed there.
When I have read the articles following the surprising headlines, I have mostly found that his words were twisted to mean what the “journalist” wanted them to mean. I haven’t read this one yet, because I doubt it’s much different from the last few I’ve read.
I just hope the Pope continues to believe in God and not in his press coverage.
I agree, the press often has been caught cherry picking what this particular Pope says to find their liberal agenda.
It is disturbing though that so many FReepers fall for the liberal trap time and again as if the Press is going to be anymore ‘fair’ with the Pope than they are with republicans.
He said to the apostles, “When you travel, don’t take a walking stick. Also, don’t carry a bag, food, or money. Take for your trip only the clothes you are wearing. When you go into a house, stay there until it is time to leave. If the people in the town will not welcome you, go outside the town and shake their dust off of your feet. This will be a warning to them.”
Gays in the church need to search their conscience. Note he points out the example of a not sexually active gay priest...who are we to judge?
We must pray for the homosexuals who are seeking God and that as they seek God they can search their conscience. In those efforts they will not only see the sin, but must find the strength to fight the temptation. A church or congregation whose doors are closed, is overly judgmental where they should show God’s mercy for the sinner are a problem.
No sinner truly comes to God, until they examine their conscience. If after hearing the Word and self-examination they choose to remain in their sin then as Catholics and Christians we’ve done all we can do. If they choose to confess their sin we need to be merciful like God and recognize some have temptations far worse than others. Be it drugs, alcohol, pornography, or homosexuality... It is not up to us to ‘judge’ them for those temptations. It is up to us to pray for them, guide them, and be strong with them.
"There is the premise, and this is fundamental, that the mercy of God is limitless for those who turn to him with a sincere and contrite heart..."
You can read some enlightening stuff here from Jeff Miller and Jimmy Akin, both former atheists who are now Catholics. They analyze what Pope Francis said about the conscience of atheists: http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/2013/09/the-pope-said-what/
"Turn to Him with a sincere and contrite heart" is the sort of thing usually doesn't make it through the secular media's filter. NO fault of yours: but you and I have to remind ourselves to read MSM accounts with a huge grain of salt.
Peace -- and take care.
Viewing the matter from the East, I liked Benedict XVI much better (best Pope of Rome since you Latins left the Church, as far as I can tell). On the other hand, the remarks for which Francis is being tarred in this thread might indicate merely that he (unlike a lot of Latins) actually understands, and regards as catholic (or Catholic), the Orthodox notion of economia. That’s the best interpretation that can be given, and if true would raise him in my estimation. The worse interpretations of his remarks have been belabored at length by posters to the thread from various Western confessions, and might also be true, which would be very sad for the Latin church. Time will tell.
You hit the nail on the head.
I recognize that the Roman Catholic church is a massive organization, and based on the “ecclesiolae in ecclesia” principle, many smaller groups which in Protestantism would be separate denominations are vying with each other for influence. It is quite possible that the liberal Jesuits have manipulated the Pope into saying things which are in themselves defensible, but which could be interpreted as “sending a message” for much worse beliefs, and will in fact open a door for such beliefs.
Time will tell.
The problem with a monarchical episcopate is that a well-meaning but weak person in the top post can say unwise things which malevolent people in lower positions then use to their own evil ends.
Thank you for your kind affirmation.
You, and many other Catholics here, keep saying that the pope is simply trying to bring the lost to God. Noble cause that. But God has given me wisdom to know when someone is telling me to believe them, and not my lying eyes. The pope wasn't bring people to Christ by his statements to atheists to follow their own way......even though that is what you want this narrative to say. He was validating the godless to continue to follow their own way, and to be a law unto themselves, in complete violation of the Book of Romans. His comments to minimize the magnitude of the two great moral arguments of our age, homosexuality and abortion, in almost the same time frame, speak volumes towards his heart. Shame on him. You do not do that. You do not bring people to Christ by encouraging them to go their own way and then blurring the lines between right and wrong. if you really believe that, I respectfully encourage you to examine your own heart in quiet and solitude before Almighty God. We are on the crux of a massive battle between Good and Evil. Stay grounded in God's Word and Jesus Christ.
With all the attention this thread has gotten, in fairness, those of us who are seriously concerned probably need to point out this one as well which so far has gotten only about a tenth of the number of comments:
Pope Francis denounces abortion after decrying church’s focus on rules
I have real problems with what look like very unwise statements by Pope Francis — if he didn’t know how his comments would be interpreted, he should have known — but he did make very clear in a different speech that he was **NOT** seeking to change the church’s position on abortion.
“left that other site,” you’re quite welcome.
I think those of us who are not Roman Catholics need to recognize that in the United States, the Roman Catholic Church is the single largest force against abortion, and even when though we seriously disagree on other doctrinal points, Roman Catholics starting to waffle on abortion would have a devastating impact on babies’ lives.
Therefore, things like this in the Roman Catholic Church need to be of concern for us as well.
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