Skip to comments.Pope Francis: Catholic Church must focus beyond "small-minded rules"
Posted on 09/19/2013 2:46:04 PM PDT by SkyPilot
click here to read article
Red, nicely said.
That would be nice, and I can see why you attempt to throw that beautiful blanket over this mess, but turning sinner back to Christ is what it is all about. But that isn't what the pope is doing.
calling those who who have offended God to turn back to HIM.
Again, no, he didn't.
"Sin, even for those who have no faith, is when one goes against their conscience, he added. To listen and to obey to (ones conscience) means to decide oneself in relation to whats perceived as good and evil. And this decision is fundamental to determining the good or evil of our actions."
You can spin this 15 ways to Sunday Biggirl. It is isn't the media taking any of his words out of context, or any other conspiracy. It is the pope's own words that point out his lack of adherence to Scripture.
There is one way in God's throne room - His way.
To tell Billions of people that they can go their own way and still reach Christ is either a lie, or rampant ignorance of the Bible.
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that Gods judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape Gods judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that Gods kindness is intended to lead you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of Gods wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God will repay each person according to what they have done.[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism. 12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in Gods sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges peoples secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
Romans 2: 1 - 16
God provided a Way - and that is Christ Jesus. By no other way do we avoid Hell itself.
"Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
I frankly do see a problem here, and it harks back more than a millennium. It harks back to a time when the early church, circa 300 AD, had a temptation presented to it on a silver platter. That temptation was called taking over the reins of a government. We had a flustered, perplexed emperor who thought the church had brilliant ideas, and put two and two together... except he did it in a worldly manner and not a gospel manner. Well, that resulted in an earthly church that was so weak its luminary could eventually “tell an atheist to follow his conscience” (doubtlessly hoping said conscience would eventually show said atheist the way to God, but sounding more like a 3rd century compromise). This weak, diluted faith would have made that church fade clear from the scene except for Christ’s own audacious promise which would then have had no witness at all. And so, like even heavily disobedient generations of Hebrew people did, it lived on under God’s own promise.
I see the Roman Catholic church headed back in an evangelical direction here. Evangelicals should be very careful when treating congregations that they are not personally familiar with, under standards that aren’t totally biblical. Biblical standards aren’t just about the entrance to heaven — they also bring in those pesky factors like God’s promises to the church and God’s provisions to the saved. I sometimes have to chuckle when I urge this or that Protestant to actually be MORE Protestant, not LESS, when criticizing something that is happening in the Roman Catholic church. Because that is the way to seeing the big picture of grace.
Thank-you for making my night with your response posting. God Bless.
metmom: Look who's talking......
I'm sure that passes for a response in your... world... But in mine, it's a sign of immaturity and spite.
I responded at length to a judgmental poster with quotes from Jesus I felt supported my position. The extremity of my statement was supported by the extremity I was responding to.
Do try to keep up - or at least remain quiet and learn when adults are having a discussion. Thanks SO much.
Yes, me. I am filled with the Holy Spirit and as such He directs me and gives me wisdom and knowledge of His word (His mind).
Come out of that abomination and dead religion called Catholicism. Until you do and are born again and filled with the Spirit, this self-righteous indignation will be all you have, along with a whole lotta ritual and sacrament and what-not.
None of your verses do as you are not a true believer (being Catholic). The only thing I am to do with unbelievers is speak truth and I am not required to do it softly or quietly.
You too can know the mind of God by being born again and indwelt with His Spirit. Or you can keep your religion and self-righteous indignation and let it lead you straight to hell. Your choice, Talisker.
I hate to burst your bubble, but I am not a Catholic.
However, unlike you, I don't loathe them, hate them, or damn them, either. I'll argue with them just fine, tho. And some of them I admire as living exactly as Jesus taught.
But then, I think that way about everyone. And the reason I do is, as you put it, I too "the am filled with the Holy Spirit and as such He directs me and gives me wisdom and knowledge of His word (His mind)."
However, unlike you (yet again), I don't think this is so rare. In fact, I think God talks to everyone on the planet, constantly.
That doesn't mean people listen. Or, having heard, want to admit to themselves what they have heard.
You have condemned me to hell, jodyel, unless I accept your personal teachings, which you have declared come from God.
I hear you, jodyel. I have heard a great many people like you, jodyel.
And it is my promise to you, told to me by God through the Holy Spirit, that you shall, without doubt, and without any possible escape, fully reap what you are sowing.
Have a nice day. : )
I am not condemning anyone to hell...if they have ears let them hear.
Doesn’t matter if you are Catholic or not, Talisker....my words are the same re: Catholicism. If you choose to defend a false religion that is up to you.
I have met some really lovely Catholics here...I have some wonderful gay friends......but I do not condone their false religion nor the lifestyle of my gay friends. And I do not hate or condemn them....Scripture condemns the sin and Scripture is clear on how salvation is received.
Even though you are not Catholic, Talisker, self-righteousness abounds in your words. And, no, God does not talk to everyone on the planet...the Spirit directs and gives wisdom and knowledge of the Lord. I think it is abundantly clear by the state of the world that most of it has completely disregarded God.
You can rail at me all you like, but it does not change the simple truth of the Gospel. You must be born again and filled with the Holy Spirit to enter the kingdom of God. I do not believe anyone will ever learn that or find that in the RCC. And I stand by that.
Best to you,
So you just want to bury your head in the sand and pretend he never said any of the stuff that the MSM is reporting?
If there is some context that you know of that the rest of us are missing, please, enlighten us.
Awesome, Old Yeller!
Would love to hear that story some time.
God bless you,
LMSM is cheering their own interpretation of what they THINK he means.
Hate the sin; love the sinner.
May I ask what religion you are?
What Pope Francis said IN CONTEXT: “..in small-minded rules. The most important thing is the first proclamation: Jesus Christ has saved you. .”
Far different from what the lib media told us he said, when we put it in context.
I’m sooooo disappointed some people think the HEADLINE that the liberal media puts on an article is what the Pope said.
You would think that FReepers especially, would know better since they’ve seen what LMSM does to conservative politicians.
God is love. God is kind. God is merciful.
So do you really think he would punish an atheist, who never knew Jesus, through no fault of their own?
Of course, if we know Jesus, and reject him, that’s a different story.
God’s love is all those things but it can only accept one end goal and still stay love. Someone who refuses all God’s love to the end because they think it is so wonderful to refuse to countenance the idea of God (how many children are atheists? this is usually a conceit that is schooled into youth) will be left with hate. And that is what hell is. It is a realm of hate. If the approaches to hell that God arranges for such a person within this life are not enough to get the person to call upon God, nothing will be enough. I think they’ll prefer the idea of staying in that place to the idea of ever being in heaven, so enthralled with hate at the God of heaven they will be.
What “religion” are YOU?
Pilot, as most of us “Crazy Evangelicals,” seems to have a faith, not a religion. A faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior.
This is a very good question, and one that usually comes up in most conversations about Christ and Salvation.
There are Biblical foundations that must be stated in answer to your question:
The Bible says that we are to spread the Good News (the "Great Commission").
1. The only was to be forgiven for our sins and to escape Hell itself is through Christ - John 14:6. When people say they are "saved", what do they mean? Saved from?? Hell. Before I accepted Christ, melted my will to Him, and acknowledged who He is, I knew I was going to Hell. Not long after my conversion, I knew I was going to His Kingdom. (1 John 5:13)
2. From what the Scriptures say, I believe that every person has an opportunity to repent and to come to faith. We are in the "Church Age" - meaning the door is wide open through Jesus Christ. What did the righteous and the heroes of the Old Testament do? Is Isaiah in Hell because Christ had not been born yet? Of course not - Noah and his family were saved by FAITH (Ephesians 2:8), and that is what saves us today, faith in Christ alone, and His Grace is sufficient.
3. You need to read Romans chapter 1 and chapter 2 in their entirety. It is perhaps the greatest statement on doctrine and philosophy ever written. "For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse..." (Romans 1:1920). Therefore, we know that even gazing out at the sun rise today and seeing a small bird testifies to the Glory of God, and His Creation. Mankind rejects God, every second of every day, despite God making it plain to them. The Law of God is written in the heart of every human being, from the tribe on the Pacific island to the man who is a hardened atheist on Long Island and passes by 14 churches each day on his way to work. "They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them." Romans 2:15
So, we battle Satan and demonic forces that deceive us, and we battle God, but still He holds open the door. I do not believe anyone will be condemned for not hearing about Christ, but they will be condemned for violating the Law and the standard that God imprinted on every human heart. God does not want anyone to perish, but He desires all come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). So when it says in Romans 2:16 that "God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my Gospel" we know that God will give every person a fair hearing, but we never use the excuse that people who never heard of Jesus have a free pass.
That is what the pope told atheists - they have a free pass and they can follow their own conscious.
His statement (and it wasn't "twisted" or "out of context") was the most irresponsible thing I have ever heard a Christian leader say.
I am not driven by "religion", I get up and live day to day for a person - Jesus Christ.
Religion always let me down, because religion is a man made institution.
I worship at a Bible believing church, but I have worshiped at many of them during my frequent travels. If they are grounded in Jesus and the Bible, then I am welcomed there.
When I have read the articles following the surprising headlines, I have mostly found that his words were twisted to mean what the “journalist” wanted them to mean. I haven’t read this one yet, because I doubt it’s much different from the last few I’ve read.
I just hope the Pope continues to believe in God and not in his press coverage.
I agree, the press often has been caught cherry picking what this particular Pope says to find their liberal agenda.
It is disturbing though that so many FReepers fall for the liberal trap time and again as if the Press is going to be anymore ‘fair’ with the Pope than they are with republicans.
He said to the apostles, “When you travel, don’t take a walking stick. Also, don’t carry a bag, food, or money. Take for your trip only the clothes you are wearing. When you go into a house, stay there until it is time to leave. If the people in the town will not welcome you, go outside the town and shake their dust off of your feet. This will be a warning to them.”
Gays in the church need to search their conscience. Note he points out the example of a not sexually active gay priest...who are we to judge?
We must pray for the homosexuals who are seeking God and that as they seek God they can search their conscience. In those efforts they will not only see the sin, but must find the strength to fight the temptation. A church or congregation whose doors are closed, is overly judgmental where they should show God’s mercy for the sinner are a problem.
No sinner truly comes to God, until they examine their conscience. If after hearing the Word and self-examination they choose to remain in their sin then as Catholics and Christians we’ve done all we can do. If they choose to confess their sin we need to be merciful like God and recognize some have temptations far worse than others. Be it drugs, alcohol, pornography, or homosexuality... It is not up to us to ‘judge’ them for those temptations. It is up to us to pray for them, guide them, and be strong with them.
"There is the premise, and this is fundamental, that the mercy of God is limitless for those who turn to him with a sincere and contrite heart..."
You can read some enlightening stuff here from Jeff Miller and Jimmy Akin, both former atheists who are now Catholics. They analyze what Pope Francis said about the conscience of atheists: http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/2013/09/the-pope-said-what/
"Turn to Him with a sincere and contrite heart" is the sort of thing usually doesn't make it through the secular media's filter. NO fault of yours: but you and I have to remind ourselves to read MSM accounts with a huge grain of salt.
Peace -- and take care.
Viewing the matter from the East, I liked Benedict XVI much better (best Pope of Rome since you Latins left the Church, as far as I can tell). On the other hand, the remarks for which Francis is being tarred in this thread might indicate merely that he (unlike a lot of Latins) actually understands, and regards as catholic (or Catholic), the Orthodox notion of economia. That’s the best interpretation that can be given, and if true would raise him in my estimation. The worse interpretations of his remarks have been belabored at length by posters to the thread from various Western confessions, and might also be true, which would be very sad for the Latin church. Time will tell.
You hit the nail on the head.
I recognize that the Roman Catholic church is a massive organization, and based on the “ecclesiolae in ecclesia” principle, many smaller groups which in Protestantism would be separate denominations are vying with each other for influence. It is quite possible that the liberal Jesuits have manipulated the Pope into saying things which are in themselves defensible, but which could be interpreted as “sending a message” for much worse beliefs, and will in fact open a door for such beliefs.
Time will tell.
The problem with a monarchical episcopate is that a well-meaning but weak person in the top post can say unwise things which malevolent people in lower positions then use to their own evil ends.
Thank you for your kind affirmation.
You, and many other Catholics here, keep saying that the pope is simply trying to bring the lost to God. Noble cause that. But God has given me wisdom to know when someone is telling me to believe them, and not my lying eyes. The pope wasn't bring people to Christ by his statements to atheists to follow their own way......even though that is what you want this narrative to say. He was validating the godless to continue to follow their own way, and to be a law unto themselves, in complete violation of the Book of Romans. His comments to minimize the magnitude of the two great moral arguments of our age, homosexuality and abortion, in almost the same time frame, speak volumes towards his heart. Shame on him. You do not do that. You do not bring people to Christ by encouraging them to go their own way and then blurring the lines between right and wrong. if you really believe that, I respectfully encourage you to examine your own heart in quiet and solitude before Almighty God. We are on the crux of a massive battle between Good and Evil. Stay grounded in God's Word and Jesus Christ.
With all the attention this thread has gotten, in fairness, those of us who are seriously concerned probably need to point out this one as well which so far has gotten only about a tenth of the number of comments:
Pope Francis denounces abortion after decrying church’s focus on rules
I have real problems with what look like very unwise statements by Pope Francis — if he didn’t know how his comments would be interpreted, he should have known — but he did make very clear in a different speech that he was **NOT** seeking to change the church’s position on abortion.
“left that other site,” you’re quite welcome.
I think those of us who are not Roman Catholics need to recognize that in the United States, the Roman Catholic Church is the single largest force against abortion, and even when though we seriously disagree on other doctrinal points, Roman Catholics starting to waffle on abortion would have a devastating impact on babies’ lives.
Therefore, things like this in the Roman Catholic Church need to be of concern for us as well.
I'd like to know what you think about this article, posted elsewhere on FR, (and the commentary after it): http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3069378/posts
What Pope Francis is saying here, is that it's not enough to just repeat law, and more law, and yet again law; the Church must first, and always, evangelize, which means to draw people into the love of Christ our God.
The moral law doesn't mean much to people who see it as just an irrelevant restriction on their freedom, imposed on them by busybodies who are irritating interlopers in their lives; but once they are attracted to Christ and begin to acquire the mind of Christ, gradually it makes sense to them: they grasp the horror of what they're doing, AND they have the grace from Him which strengthens them to do good and avoid evil.
What the Pope said to the gynecologists is beautiful: that the unborn child has the face of Jesus Christ, the face of the Lord! That is not "shying away from condemning sinful behavior"; it is, rather, showing exactly why these things are to be condemned.
Bedtime for me. Good night and God bless you!
“Popes aren’t “worshiped”.”
Then why do you kneel at his feet, kiss his ring, and call him “Holy” “Father”???????
I asked this same kind of question on another thread and was told to “not be a Catholic” and that way, “I wouldn’t have to worry about it.”
Will any ONE of you Catholics give me a straight answer???
Next thing he will be saying is that Jesus didn`t really die for our sins.
Or is he going to come out and say that homosexuality and abortion are now OK? Or has he already said that?
If he was to say now that they are not sins, it would not matter
The Pope does not even know Jesus...That`s what I think
Thank you as we’ll. We will agree to disagree. but must say, there is a gulf between those who are my brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ, and good people like you. There are those who have submitted to Christ, and I know them. I do not know you. Do you understand?
Absolutely it will, and its basically foretold in The Bible
Not just the Catholic Church either btw
Any person, whether they are a layperson, or cleric, is WRONG if they do not follow God’s laws, but that doesn’t mean that the religion itself is wrong - the person, who doesn’t follow Church teachings is wrong.
I’m glad you read the Bible, but where does it say that you can leave the religion that Jesus started?
“And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,* and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”
Jesus started the Church. The Church gets us to go to Mass each weekend, as well as other rules. Human nature would cause many of us to stay home on many Sundays, but the requirement to attend Church gives us more grace, because we are adoring God in the Church that Jesus fiounded.
“..Note he points out the example of a not sexually active gay priest...who are we to judge? ..”
Temptation is not wrong; only giving in to the temptation is wrong.
btw, the Catechism calls homosexuality a disorder.
“.. read MSM accounts with a huge grain of salt. “
We all certainly need to do that EACH AND EVERY TIME, and thanks for the link. I’ll check it out!
Some of your remarks are valid, but some atheists might sincerely not know all you said.
But God knows their hearts, and he will judge accordingly.
“There are not over a 100 people in the U.S. that hate the Catholic Church, there are millions however, who hate what
they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church — which is, of course, quite a different thing.” — Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
As I said in previous post:
MATTHEW Chapter 16 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,* and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
Jesus started the Church. The Church gets us to go to Mass each weekend, as well as other rules. Human nature would cause many of us to stay home on many Sundays, but the requirement to attend Church gives us more grace, because we are adoring God in the Church that Jesus founded.
For anyone interested in reading the Pope’s actual words, without the media spin:
SkyPilot says: “The Bible says that we are to spread the Good News (the “Great Commission”).
Pope Francis says: We need to proclaim the Gospel on every street corner, the pope says’
What’s this? Do you and Pope Francis have an area of agreement? :)
I bet you will find mega areas of agreements, but you won’t find them through LMSM.
The Church that I put stock in is the Church that Jesus started.
It’s very clear:
MATTHEW Chapter 16 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,* and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
Please don’t ignore this from the Bible, SkyPilot. It’s plain and clear.
“Perhaps the most revealing detail in Pope Franciss lengthy interview, conducted by the Italian Jesuit Antonio Spadaro and published yesterday in English translation in the Jesuit journal America, is the pontiffs reflection on one of his favorite Roman walks, prior to his election:
When I had to come to to Rome, I always stayed in [the neighborhood of the] Via della Scrofa. From there I often visited the Church of St. Louis of France, and I went there to contemplate the painting of The Calling of St. Matthew by Caravaggio. That finger of Jesus, pointing at Matthew. Thats me. I feel like him. Like Matthew. . . . This is me, a sinner on whom the Lord has turned his gaze.
The Calling of St. Matthew is an extraordinary painting in many ways, including Caravaggios signature use of light and darkness to heighten the spiritual tension of a scene. In this case, though, the chiaroscuro setting is further intensified by a profoundly theological artistic device: The finger of Jesus, pointing at Matthew, seems deliberately to invoke the finger of God as rendered by Michelangelo on the Sistine Chapel ceiling. Thus Caravaggio, in depicting the summons of the tax collector, unites creation and redemption, God the Father and the incarnate Son, personal call and apostolic mission.”
Do not think you can throw around what your grandmother taught you and have that stand before The Lord. Come to this debate with His Word, and His Word only. No one is impressed by your Catholic "credentials" except you. God is approached in humility.
My grandmothers was a wonderful woman, and got on her knees and prayed all the time, using the chair, as an altar, and didn’t care who was around.
BUT I did NOT quote my grandmother.
I quoted the Bible.
Is it because I quoted from the Bible, showing Who started the Catholic Church that upsets you?
Don’t pick and choose quotes from the Bible.
When I have listened to EWTN Catholic radio, more than once I heard FORMER nonCatholics, including a former Protestant pastor say they converted to the Catholic religion because it’s the religion Jesus started.