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The Science of Guns Proves Arming Untrained Citizens Is a Bad Idea (Get in here!)
Scientific American ^ | May 8, 2013 | Michael Shermer

Posted on 05/10/2013 6:51:56 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 31,672 people died by guns in 2010 (the most recent year for which U.S. figures are available), a staggering number that is orders of magnitude higher than that of comparable Western democracies. What can we do about it? National Rifle Association executive vice president Wayne LaPierre believes he knows: “The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.” If LaPierre means professionally trained police and military who routinely practice shooting at ranges, this observation would at least be partially true. If he means armed private citizens with little to no training, he could not be more wrong.

Consider a 1998 study in the Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery that found that “every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.” Pistol owners' fantasy of blowing away home-invading bad guys or street toughs holding up liquor stores is a myth debunked by the data showing that a gun is 22 times more likely to be used in a criminal assault, an accidental death or injury, a suicide attempt or a homicide than it is for self-defense. I harbored this belief for the 20 years I owned a Ruger .357 Magnum with hollow-point bullets designed to shred the body of anyone who dared to break into my home, but when I learned about these statistics, I got rid of the gun.

More insights can be found in a 2013 book from Johns Hopkins University Press entitled Reducing Gun Violence in America: Informing Policy with Evidence and Analysis, edited by Daniel W. Webster and Jon S. Vernick.....

(Excerpt) Read more at scientificamerican.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Editorial; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 2ndamendment; banglist; guncontrol; lawenforcement; secondamendment; selfdefense; youwillnotdisarmus
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Besides being a bunch of smoke and mirrors in its own right, this piece is yet another attempt to divert the truth about guns.

2A is about tyranny, not crime. Never was about crime, accidents, cheating spouses or shooting the barking dog next door.

None of us need *anyone’s* permission to protect ourselves, our families and our property. That is as natural & righteous as breathing.

2A does not “give” us the right to firearms, it simply reminds the government that it has no power to abridge that right. A right that we are born with.


51 posted on 05/10/2013 8:59:37 PM PDT by ChildOfThe60s (If you can remember the 60s.....you weren't really there)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
"The Science of Guns," eh? That's a very tenuous hook: one that will cost Scientific American. Apparently, Michael does like attention and has tried to get plenty of it with his many odd tangents.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Shermer


52 posted on 05/10/2013 9:00:06 PM PDT by familyop (We Baby Boomers are croaking in an avalanche of rotten politics smelled around the planet.)
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To: RetiredTexasVet; All

The CDC is responsible for collecting all death information to produce their regular Morbidity and Mortality Reports. Goggle that to see how they present their statistics.


53 posted on 05/10/2013 9:01:19 PM PDT by gleeaikin
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To: max americana

***LOL, I never heard of that one. Liberals lie a lot, don’t they?***

Did a search as I had made comments on the article. Found it! Did not know that I had posted so much on FR! Here it is! from Jan 11, 2013!

WHY I GAVE UP MY GUNS.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2977507/posts


54 posted on 05/10/2013 9:14:12 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (When someone burns a cross on your lawn, the best firehose is an AK-47.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
I harbored this belief for the 20 years I owned a Ruger .357 Magnum with hollow-point bullets designed to shred the body of anyone who dared to break into my home, but when I learned about these statistics, I got rid of the gun.

What, did he think his Ruger was going to crawl out of it's hiding place one night and get him?

55 posted on 05/10/2013 9:47:25 PM PDT by eclecticEel (Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness: 7/4/1776 - 3/21/2010)
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To: LibWhacker
“Don't know where this comes from, probably from some stupid movie. But I like it, so I'm postin’ it... So there.”

The movie is “Collateral” Tom Cruise & Jamie Foxx. Its the briefcase scene following the hit on the Penthouse guy. I am not a particular fan of Cruise but he played the bad guy Vincent really well but that is more of a credit to the director Michael Mann.

The pistol is a HK USP45.
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Collateral#Heckler_.26_Koch_USP45

56 posted on 05/10/2013 9:48:46 PM PDT by Polynikes (What would Walt Kowalski do. In the meantime "GET OFF MY LAWN")
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To: TheZMan

I’ve got it. His motto should be ‘Moron Labe’!


57 posted on 05/10/2013 10:04:18 PM PDT by pluvmantelo (Better 99 men suffer than 1 man enjoy illicit narcotics-M Bloomberg)
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To: 2banana
Japan has a near complete gun ban but yet has a much higher suicide rate than America

Mexico has a near complete gun ban yet has a crime rate much higher than America

Russia bans handguns for all civilians, and also bans long guns for almost all Russians except licensed hunters. However, Russia's overall per capita rate for murders committed with any and all types of weapons is almost 4 times higher than the overall US rate for murders committed with all types of weapons including guns. The study also found that many other Euro nations with very strict gun control laws have as high or higher per capita murder rates as the US has.

Its not the NRA saying all that, it's in part of a study of murder rates in several Euro nations that was made by two Harvard professors, and Harvard isn't exactly what I would call a pro-gun institution. Actually, in view of Harvard's well known hostility to our 2nd A rights I'm surprised that the results of that study were made public.

58 posted on 05/10/2013 10:14:16 PM PDT by epow (I'm not looking for the undertaker, I'm looking for the Upper Taker)
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To: bigheadfred

The propaganda in Scientific America is disgusting. Not once did they mention or dispute the finding of John Lott. or mention that Gun crimes are down. or prove that more gun laws would do anything to stop any more shootings.

http://hotair.com/archives/2013/05/07/two-new-studies-gun-crime-has-dropped-dramatically-over-last-20-years-and-most-americans-have-no-idea/


59 posted on 05/10/2013 11:19:03 PM PDT by Exton1
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

we should contact the liar at Questions for Skeptic magazine’s Executive Director and Editor-in-Chief, Michael Shermer, can be emailed to mshermer@skeptic.com.


60 posted on 05/10/2013 11:57:37 PM PDT by Exton1
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To: MortMan

I would like to ask this dolt if a relatively physically weak woman would have a better chance with or without a gun against a large person breaking into her residence. Only an anti-gun fool would deny the obvious.


61 posted on 05/11/2013 2:24:59 AM PDT by driftless2
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To: muawiyah
Do we have another Western democracy with 13% of its population descended from African slaves?

The fact that they are descended from African slaves is only tangentially relevant.

What IS relevant is that many of them self-segregate into violent, lawless urban concrete jungles where there are minimal adverse consequences to blowing-away anyone who displeases them.

62 posted on 05/11/2013 3:13:49 AM PDT by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: null and void

Is he perchance an ultra-marathon bicycle rider?


63 posted on 05/11/2013 3:21:32 AM PDT by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: Da Coyote

Indeed, “Scientific” American the other day had an article about how it is good that science spending in the government is at an all time low since the steady defunding of research in military and civilian nuclear infrastructure starting in the 50s...


64 posted on 05/11/2013 4:28:48 AM PDT by JudgemAll (Democrats Fed. job-security Whorocracy & hate:hypocrites must be gay like us or be tested/crucified)
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To: TigersEye

It sounds like scripted agenda-speak to me.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes , very scripted, a former bitter clinger to his gun now converted by the science of statistics? Buahahahaha!

I suppose he has abandoned his bible as well? LOL.


65 posted on 05/11/2013 4:34:57 AM PDT by Candor7 (Obama fascism article:(http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/05/barack_obama_the_quintessentia_1.html))
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To: DuncanWaring
Back when their immediate ancestors lived spread across the rural South they had the same higher murder rate. They also have 4 times the average rate of schizophrenia.

But the question is what other comparable industrial nation has the same ethnic mix.

66 posted on 05/11/2013 4:36:40 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

Both Thomas Sowell (Black Rednecks and White Liberals) and James Webb (Born Fighting) make the point that the southern freed slaves saw (and copied) those same violent behaviors in the white people they observed - the descendents of those immigrants from lowland Scotland, who would just as soon kill you as look at you.

So, ironically, in the modern urban ghetto, when a “brother” shoots a “brother”, they’re actually “acting white”.


67 posted on 05/11/2013 4:47:53 AM PDT by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Isn’t it kind of late in the game for Scientific American to be singing that song? The “untrained citizens” of this country are already armed to the teeth. The gun-grabbers ain’t putting that genie back in the bottle no matter how much fear-mongering they try to spread.


68 posted on 05/11/2013 4:52:06 AM PDT by jespasinthru (Proud member of the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy.)
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To: DuncanWaring

Webb would look at it that way but I think the black communities simply have a higher rate of schizophrenia.


69 posted on 05/11/2013 4:58:57 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: ctdonath2

Now that’s just laugh-out-loud funny! And so true!


70 posted on 05/11/2013 4:59:06 AM PDT by jespasinthru (Proud member of the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy.)
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To: muawiyah

That may be...


71 posted on 05/11/2013 5:03:11 AM PDT by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: muawiyah

Oh come on now! I’m black, and I’m not mentally ill. Just ask my invisible demon. He’ll vouch for my sanity. ;)


72 posted on 05/11/2013 5:07:53 AM PDT by jespasinthru (Proud member of the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy.)
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To: jespasinthru

(making sure to avoid any eye contact) “yeah, sure, uh huh ~ going away ~ bye” (scurring to other side of street, pulling coat up to hide face)


73 posted on 05/11/2013 5:15:33 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: max americana

The science of cars proves letting untrained citizens drive is a bad idea.

The science of swimming pools proves swimming by untrained citizens is a bad idea.

The science of tools proves letting untrained citizens operate chainsaws is a bad idea.

etc.


74 posted on 05/11/2013 5:19:37 AM PDT by generally (Don't be stupid. We have politicians for that.)
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To: Pox

“The Science of Guns” made me laugh right there. What’s your major? I’m majoring in the “science of guns.”


75 posted on 05/11/2013 5:22:01 AM PDT by generally (Don't be stupid. We have politicians for that.)
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To: Yo-Yo

Amen to that. I used to have a subscription and I loved the magazine.

I don’t know if they changed or I just started noticing, but the articles started having a political slant. That was not so surprising when they veered into social “science”, but even in articles that should have been strictly scientific, hard science like physics and chemistry, they managed to wedge in some liberal tripe. Don’t even get me started on global warming.

Needless to say, I no longer subscribe.


76 posted on 05/11/2013 5:26:46 AM PDT by generally (Don't be stupid. We have politicians for that.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Many veterans, sportsmen/women, hunters, target shooters, etc. out there have more and better training than the average police officer.

That is so true...I have cut back on my shooting lately just because of ammo shortages and I don't want to deplete my rather "substantial" inventory. But when I was shooting regularly there wasn't a LEO who could outshoot me and I used to shoot regularly over 400-rounds a month of large pistol calibers at an indoor range, plus lots of .22 plinking in the desert. Plus, attending advanced pistol and combat pistol and defence courses.

77 posted on 05/11/2013 5:35:21 AM PDT by Cuttnhorse
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To: Last Dakotan

I used to suscribe when I was a science major but got fed up with the politically slanted articles. This is just another of many.


78 posted on 05/11/2013 5:36:33 AM PDT by Cuttnhorse
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To: DuncanWaring

No idea, I never knew him very well, and haven’t seen him in maybe 20 years? I wasn’t impressed then, though.


79 posted on 05/11/2013 6:11:29 AM PDT by null and void (America needs to be led by warriors not by lawyers)
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To: G Larry
“every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.”

Since this study came from the "Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery", I'm going to guess that they got their data from shootings that resulted in an ER visit. They count as self defense ONLY cases where the gun was (1) fired, AND (2) the bad guy was hit, AND (3) the case was immediately classified as self-defense.

Cases where the gun owner chased away the bad guy without wounding or killing the bad guy would not be counted as defensive shootings. Cases where the gun owner was initially arrested and the case was later decided as "self defense" would also not be counted.

An additional point: the vast majority of shootings involve inner-city criminals shooting other inner-city criminals, using guns they are legally prohibited from owning. A study which excluded those cases, and covered ONLY shootings where the gun owner was legally allowed to own the gun used, would paint a different story.

80 posted on 05/11/2013 6:23:08 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
What about the six years of military and six years of security police training like I have. Many veterans, sportsmen/women, hunters, target shooters, etc. out there have more and better training than the average police officer.

In most places, police academies devote just a week or two to firearms training. I've had far more formal training than the average police officer, and far more range time.

81 posted on 05/11/2013 6:30:09 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: MortMan

The best solution is to make certain that all citizens are properly trained in the safe use of firearms.


82 posted on 05/11/2013 7:04:14 AM PDT by reg45 (Barack 0bama: Implementing class warfare by having no class.)
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To: NoLibZone

Ditto.


83 posted on 05/11/2013 7:06:37 AM PDT by reg45 (Barack 0bama: Implementing class warfare by having no class.)
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To: 2banana

I have to wonder if they really know better themselves. After all, these medicos know you don’t have to vaccinate every single person in a community in order to bring an epidemic to an end. (Quick! How many of you have smallpox vaccinations?)


84 posted on 05/11/2013 10:47:28 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (How long before all this "fairness" kills everybody, even the poor it was supposed to help???)
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To: reg45

Probably not the answer the grabbers want... but if taxes have to subsidize anything why not this. Shooting lessons free to anyone who is not a crook or a nut.


85 posted on 05/11/2013 10:48:46 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (How long before all this "fairness" kills everybody, even the poor it was supposed to help???)
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To: Candor7
Exactly! His conversion was just a little too ... Progressive. lol
86 posted on 05/11/2013 10:50:14 AM PDT by TigersEye ("No man left behind" is more than an Army Ranger credo it's the character of America.)
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To: DuncanWaring

Don’t be dissin’ black rednecks, or any color of rednecks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c66P1mCVGio
Rednecks built America!

It’s unfortunate that they suffered such a rate of craziness. I have a hunch, it would be probably difficult to prove, but what I think is a spiritually educated hunch, that the problems with such populations may not be all genetic. It may be spiritual too, and I don’t mean all of their free will i.e. if they just read the bible all the demons would go away, it’s not always that simple in spiritual warfare. All manner of dark spirits probably followed the African slaves kidnapped from Africa, and guess where they mostly went.


87 posted on 05/11/2013 10:55:38 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (How long before all this "fairness" kills everybody, even the poor it was supposed to help???)
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To: gleeaikin

The other day, in the news, the news reader stated that “government scientists at NOAA .....”. That’s all that I needed to hear .... “government scientists” is an oxymoron!


88 posted on 05/11/2013 6:42:45 PM PDT by RetiredTexasVet (You don't have to be stupid to become a Progressive, but it does speed up the process.)
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