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The Science of Guns Proves Arming Untrained Citizens Is a Bad Idea (Get in here!)
Scientific American ^ | May 8, 2013 | Michael Shermer

Posted on 05/10/2013 6:51:56 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 31,672 people died by guns in 2010 (the most recent year for which U.S. figures are available), a staggering number that is orders of magnitude higher than that of comparable Western democracies. What can we do about it? National Rifle Association executive vice president Wayne LaPierre believes he knows: “The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.” If LaPierre means professionally trained police and military who routinely practice shooting at ranges, this observation would at least be partially true. If he means armed private citizens with little to no training, he could not be more wrong.

Consider a 1998 study in the Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery that found that “every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.” Pistol owners' fantasy of blowing away home-invading bad guys or street toughs holding up liquor stores is a myth debunked by the data showing that a gun is 22 times more likely to be used in a criminal assault, an accidental death or injury, a suicide attempt or a homicide than it is for self-defense. I harbored this belief for the 20 years I owned a Ruger .357 Magnum with hollow-point bullets designed to shred the body of anyone who dared to break into my home, but when I learned about these statistics, I got rid of the gun.

More insights can be found in a 2013 book from Johns Hopkins University Press entitled Reducing Gun Violence in America: Informing Policy with Evidence and Analysis, edited by Daniel W. Webster and Jon S. Vernick.....

(Excerpt) Read more at scientificamerican.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Editorial; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 2ndamendment; banglist; guncontrol; lawenforcement; secondamendment; selfdefense; youwillnotdisarmus
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I guess Michael hasn't seen stories like this one:

Police: All Empire State shooting victims were wounded by officers
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/25/justice/new-york-empire-state-shooting

1 posted on 05/10/2013 6:51:56 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

there used to be something called crime AND punishment


2 posted on 05/10/2013 6:56:08 PM PDT by bigheadfred ( barry your mouth is writing checks your ass cant cash)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
It is always about cherry picking data.

Most guns used in self defense are NEVER fired.

Japan has a near complete gun ban but yet has a much higher suicide rate than America

Mexico has a near complete gun ban yet has a crime rate much higher than America

You want to get rid of your gun? Go ahead. Your choice. But why do you want to take guns away from everyone else?

Consider a 1998 study in the Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery that found that “every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.” Pistol owners' fantasy of blowing away home-invading bad guys or street toughs holding up liquor stores is a myth debunked by the data showing that a gun is 22 times more likely to be used in a criminal assault, an accidental death or injury, a suicide attempt or a homicide than it is for self-defense. I harbored this belief for the 20 years I owned a Ruger .357 Magnum with hollow-point bullets designed to shred the body of anyone who dared to break into my home, but when I learned about these statistics, I got rid of the gun.

3 posted on 05/10/2013 6:57:31 PM PDT by 2banana (My common ground with terrorists - they want to die for islam and we want to kill them)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

“I harbored this belief for the 20 years I owned a Ruger .357 Magnum with hollow-point bullets designed to shred the body of anyone who dared to break into my home, but when I learned about these statistics, I got rid of the gun.”

I call BS. So this libtard owned a gun (supposedly) for 20 years, reads a stat sheet, and gets rid of his firearm? Seriously. I’ve read a lot of scripts here in Hollywood and this is one creative bullcrap.


4 posted on 05/10/2013 6:57:39 PM PDT by max americana (fired liberals in our company after the election, & laughed while they cried (true story))
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Scientific American used to be both. Now they’re neither.


5 posted on 05/10/2013 6:58:08 PM PDT by Yo-Yo
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Mikey also engages in magical thinking, and the fact he gave away his firearms proves he's likely verging on schizophrenia. But the really big piece of evidence he presents is a comparison of the USA to "comparable Western democracies" which would be what?

Do we have another Western democracy with 13% of its population descended from African slaves? Do we have another where almost as many are descended from a background of mostly American Indians?

Pound for pound, and ethnicity to ethnicity, Americans of whatever derivation are, in general healthier, live longer, and have many more firearms than the ol'boys back in the Old World wherever that might be!

6 posted on 05/10/2013 6:59:13 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
According to DOJ crime statistics, guns are used by US citizens 2.5 million times per year to prevent violent crimes like rape, robbery, home-invasion and carjacking, 99% of the time without a shot being fired. (Source: GunFacts.info)
7 posted on 05/10/2013 6:59:32 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Islam is a religion of peace, and Moslems reserve the right to detonate anyone who says otherwise.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Scientific American becme a joke years ago.

It should be renamed “Liberal Amerinan”.


8 posted on 05/10/2013 7:01:58 PM PDT by Da Coyote
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Thank you for admitting you’re no longer armed. I’m sure someone will take advantage of that fact.

Moron.


9 posted on 05/10/2013 7:02:49 PM PDT by TheZMan (Buy more ammo.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

“every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.”

Well, the simple fact is, the police intentionally don’t keep data on the number of times a gun is presented to prevent a crime.

They may take a report if the weapon is fired, but they aren’t real interested in compiling data in that regard.


10 posted on 05/10/2013 7:03:07 PM PDT by G Larry (Darkness Hates the Light)
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To: Yo-Yo

Bump!


11 posted on 05/10/2013 7:04:51 PM PDT by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Just the first half dozen responses on that link that I read are ripping this guy a new one, so even those who subscribe the Scientific American see right through this BS.


12 posted on 05/10/2013 7:05:13 PM PDT by Pox (Good Night. I expect more respect tomorrow.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Eh? It’s the original point-and-click interface!


13 posted on 05/10/2013 7:05:27 PM PDT by null and void (America needs to be led by warriors not by lawyers)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

The author is a dumb fark!

To summarize: For every incident where an armed citizen used a gun in self defense, there were four unintentional shootings (a completely undefined category), seven criminals using a weapon in the commission of their crimes, and 11 suicides attempted (some of which were successful, but not all of which are identified as using a firearm).

His conclusion: Disarm the citizens who defend themselves!

Just because others do the wrong thing doesn’t mean that I should be prevented from protecting myself, dumba$$ (the author)!


14 posted on 05/10/2013 7:06:01 PM PDT by MortMan (Disarming the sheep only emboldens the wolves.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
I'm willing to guess that the article is citing the usual carefully manipulated statistics which are designed to generate the desired outcome, instead of representing reality.

There is a large supply of junk science generated by the anti-gun types. The statistics which supposedly show that houses which have guns in them are more likely to have a crime happen where the gun is used to commit the crime as opposed to stopping the crime rely on a population of criminals who, needless to say, keep their guns at home.

The studies I have read tout the correlation of gun ownership with violence in households, but ignore a stronger correlation from their own data between renting and violence in households. By the logic of the studies you could dramatically increase your safety by buying a house instead of renting one. But that defies logic, suggesting the underlying study methodology is incorrect.

One study I read claimed a correlation between gun ownership rates and suicides, but neglected to point out that they generated their estimates of gun ownership rates from the firearm suicide rate. That kind of circular statistical manipulation is not a valid scientific method.

15 posted on 05/10/2013 7:07:00 PM PDT by freeandfreezing
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention,

Now just reading the name of their organization would indicate that they are outside their realm of expertise and are vocalizing political correctness out of their anal orifices (loosely translated to common language - they don’t know sh!t and are talking out their a$$es).


16 posted on 05/10/2013 7:09:27 PM PDT by RetiredTexasVet (You don't have to be stupid to become a Progressive, but it does speed up the process.)
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To: Pox
Just the first half dozen responses on that link that I read are ripping this guy a new one,

I know the author (not well, but I was at his wedding, and there when he was served divorce papers) and his old one had already taken over his personality. He doesn't need a new one, ripped or otherwise.

17 posted on 05/10/2013 7:09:33 PM PDT by null and void (America needs to be led by warriors not by lawyers)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Umm... To the author if this article, I have a big "guess what?" In the 50s and 60s, millions of us Mid-westerners and Southerners had no training -- except what our fathers taught us about gun safety and hunting -- yet the bad guys were AFRAID of us and generally kept their f'n distance, preying instead on people they figured were unarmed. It's still that way to this day for many of us "untrained" folks (although, I admit, I would loved to have had some formal training in my youth):


Don't know where this comes from, probably from some stupid movie. But I like it, so I'm postin' it... So there.

18 posted on 05/10/2013 7:09:40 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
31,672

How many of these are in the hood?

19 posted on 05/10/2013 7:10:09 PM PDT by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: 2banana

“but when I learned about these statistics, I got rid of the gun. “

I call “BULL”!

Anybody who would accept such garbage data at face value, likely didn’t have any serious training in the use of a firearm, or lacks the critical thinking skills necessary to process those claims.

I don’t believe the author ever went any further than owning a weapon, sitting on a shelf, or in a safe somewhere.


20 posted on 05/10/2013 7:10:45 PM PDT by G Larry (Darkness Hates the Light)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

1st off, IIRC most of those gun deaths are deliberate suicide. Take those out right away.

2nd, I’m sick of fools acting like using guns requires genius or tons of training. 1 of the main advantages of guns over other implements, such as swordplay or archery, was the reduction in time needed to train.

How much easier are they to use now than 400 years ago? Things are much less complex now.


21 posted on 05/10/2013 7:11:57 PM PDT by the OlLine Rebel (Common sense is an uncommon virtue./Technological progress cannot be legislated.)
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To: LibWhacker

What about the six years of military and six years of security police training like I have. Many veterans, sportsmen/women, hunters, target shooters, etc. out there have more and better training than the average police officer.


22 posted on 05/10/2013 7:13:00 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (I'll raise $2million for Sarah Palin's presidential run. What'll you do?)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
According to DOJ crime statistics, guns are used by US citizens 2.5 million times per year to prevent violent crimes like rape, robbery, home-invasion and carjacking, 99% of the time without a shot being fired.

This statement may be true, but it is cherry picking data. It is a thinly veiled racial attack on the black man in the White House. And it is oppressive to all LGBTQ people. Republicans just want to end all the social safety net, take away the vote for women and bring back slavery for blacks!

23 posted on 05/10/2013 7:13:29 PM PDT by 17th Miss Regt
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

I agree with S.A. We need weapon handling classes in High Schools.


24 posted on 05/10/2013 7:15:24 PM PDT by NoLibZone (None here can be puzzled by why Jews walked into the cars so quietly- we are walking up the planks.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

My point is simply that the author’s claim that arming untrained people is a bad idea... is flat wrong. It’s a good idea, as hundreds of years of our history proves. Not only do bad guys fear an armed (but largely untrained) populace, regular people do not fear them. The more the b***ards say the 2nd Amendment is bad for reasons X, Y and Z, the more we have to push back and correct them on every point. imo.


25 posted on 05/10/2013 7:20:38 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Michael Shermer

26 posted on 05/10/2013 7:20:54 PM PDT by kcvl
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To: max americana

***I’ve read a lot of scripts here in Hollywood and this is one creative bullcrap.****

It is as bad as the lib who claimed he had a 12 guage and when someone tried to break into his house he was so nervous he was loading and ejecting the shells at the same time.

Fool didn’t realize that most shotguns lock up when a cartridge is placed in the chamber and will not open until the gun is fired or a small button near the trigger or guard is pushed.

BS is BS.


27 posted on 05/10/2013 7:24:42 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (When someone burns a cross on your lawn, the best firehose is an AK-47.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

I was trained to be a soldier and a cop. Most of neither could hit the broad side of a monster. Only a very few out of many of either can focus fire very well at all. Vanities, you know, and class war between those constituents who own soldiers and cops, and those who don’t.


28 posted on 05/10/2013 7:25:02 PM PDT by familyop (We Baby Boomers are croaking in an avalanche of rotten politics smelled around the planet.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet; All

I went to the site and read the comments. Scientific American is getting eviserated with them.


29 posted on 05/10/2013 7:25:17 PM PDT by marktwain (The MSM must die for the Republic to live. Long live the new media!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
In the 70's and 80's I subscribed to Scientific American. I loved it! Mathemagical themes (Hofstadter...?), solid scientific articles every month.

Dropped it when they started watering down the articles and became an early rendition of USA today.

I recently subscribed on a whim and am nauseated by the political pap they pass as "science." Terrible.

I'm done with them (...fool me twice, shame on me).

30 posted on 05/10/2013 7:26:35 PM PDT by MV=PY (The Magic Question: Who's paying for it)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

“Scientific” American...

They went over to the libtard dark side way early. Even before Global Warming became all the rage.


31 posted on 05/10/2013 7:27:25 PM PDT by Mr. K (There are lies, damned lies, statistics, and democrat talking points.)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

“It is as bad as the lib who claimed he had a 12 guage and when someone tried to break into his house he was so nervous he was loading and ejecting the shells at the same time.”

LOL, I never heard of that one. Liberals lie a lot, don’t they? A liberal knows about guns the same way Bill Clinton knows about chastity.


32 posted on 05/10/2013 7:28:01 PM PDT by max americana (fired liberals in our company after the election, & laughed while they cried (true story))
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To: 2banana

For every gun they get from a bad guy they would take away many thousands from good guys.

So instead a thousands of good guys with guns against one bad, you will have one bad guy with a gun against thousands without guns.


33 posted on 05/10/2013 7:30:49 PM PDT by Mr. K (There are lies, damned lies, statistics, and democrat talking points.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Was it a bad idea on April 19, 1775?


34 posted on 05/10/2013 7:32:11 PM PDT by caddie
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

BullS*** like this is what caused this geologist to ditch this douchebaggian “pergressive” rag near 20 years ago...


35 posted on 05/10/2013 7:33:24 PM PDT by Axenolith (Government blows, and that which governs least, blows least...)
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To: central_va

31,671


36 posted on 05/10/2013 7:33:59 PM PDT by EEGator
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

http://reason.com/blog/2013/01/16/the-problem-with-the-public-health-resea

This article from “Reason” magazine takes a look at these claims.


37 posted on 05/10/2013 7:34:53 PM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Keep yer booger hook off the bang switch if you don’t want what it’s pointing at to get dead.

Not hard.


38 posted on 05/10/2013 7:34:58 PM PDT by ctdonath2 (Making good people helpless doesn't make bad people harmless.)
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To: Yo-Yo
Scientific American used to be both. Now they’re neither.

They just have spelling problems, the rag is actually Socialistic American misspelled.

39 posted on 05/10/2013 7:40:29 PM PDT by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it, and the Constitution and law mean what WE say.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

This publication doesn’t care how stupid they come across and who they offend. Their circulation is probably guaranteed by almost every liberal college and institution out there. Brainwashing is this article’s agenda and students around this country probably have to read this and submit as part of a curriculum.


40 posted on 05/10/2013 7:45:05 PM PDT by George from New England (escaped CT in 2006, now living north of Tampa)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Standard leftist fantasy, they must have a template to follow.


41 posted on 05/10/2013 7:47:45 PM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, a Matter of Fact, Not a Matter of Opinion)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
I harbored this belief for the 20 years I owned a Ruger .357 Magnum with hollow-point bullets designed to shred the body of anyone who dared to break into my home, but when I learned about these statistics, I got rid of the gun.

Pffffft! What a douch bag. Apparently, due to "statistics" his .357 is going to rise up and wax his ass. I wonder if he'll change his opinion if his home is invaded by dirt bags. Maybe he can debate them into leaving.

42 posted on 05/10/2013 7:48:16 PM PDT by Doomonyou (Let them eat Lead.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet; TigersEye

I harbored this belief for the 20 years I owned a Ruger .357 Magnum with hollow-point bullets designed to shred the body of anyone who dared to break into my home, but when I learned about these statistics, I got rid of the gun. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Michael Schermer is a wuss. The 2nd amendment is not dependent on statistics. Rather than “getting rid” of his gun, wussy Michael should have booked some range time and taken defensive shooting courses to remedy his obvious paranoia about being a gun owner ( He drank the liberal koolaid?).


43 posted on 05/10/2013 7:50:22 PM PDT by Candor7 (Obama fascism article:(http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/05/barack_obama_the_quintessentia_1.html))
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Scientific American hasn’t been either in decades.


44 posted on 05/10/2013 7:51:20 PM PDT by Lurker (Violence is rarely the answer. But when it is it is the only answer.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Amid a growing consensus that the staggering toll of gun violence in the United States is an urgent public health issue, the Johns Hopkins University’s Bloomberg School of Public Health has convened experts on gun policy and violence from the United States and selected other countries to summarize relevant research and its implications for policymakers and concerned citizens.


http://muse.jhu.edu/books/9781421411118


I smell a rat!


45 posted on 05/10/2013 8:00:42 PM PDT by smokingfrog ( ==> sleep with one eye open (<o> ---)
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To: NoLibZone

I agree with S.A. We need weapon handling classes in High Schools.


My ass! Weapon handling, and marksmanship training belongs in the hands of fathers, uncles, grandfathers, brothers. Get real.


46 posted on 05/10/2013 8:01:56 PM PDT by SgtBob (Freedom is not for the faint of heart. Semper Fi!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

CDC has been repeating this long-disproven lie for many, many years.


47 posted on 05/10/2013 8:31:42 PM PDT by ozzymandus
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To: Candor7
Frankly I don't believe that drivel is the least bit
authentic. It sounds like scripted agenda-speak to me.
48 posted on 05/10/2013 8:36:24 PM PDT by TigersEye ("No man left behind" is more than an Army Ranger credo it's the character of America.)
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To: Yo-Yo

At one time I was interested in subscribing to Scientific American. No longer.


49 posted on 05/10/2013 8:45:44 PM PDT by Last Dakotan
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To: freeandfreezing
By the logic of the studies you could dramatically increase your safety by buying a house instead of renting one. But that defies logic, suggesting the underlying study methodology is incorrect.

You can buy a house in Detroit for $1 - then you'd be real safe.

50 posted on 05/10/2013 8:50:47 PM PDT by Last Dakotan
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