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The Turret Gunner Was a She
Townhall.com ^ | February 8, 2013 | Paul Greenberg

Posted on 02/08/2013 9:37:49 AM PST by Kaslin

Martin Dempsey, the Army general who's now chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, was a division commander when he got to Baghdad in 2003 and climbed into a Humvee for his first trip off base. "I asked the driver ... who he was (and) where he was from," the general remembers, "and I slapped the turret gunner around the leg and I said, 'Who are you?' And she leaned down and said, 'I'm Amanda.'

"And I said, 'Ah, OK.' So female turret gunner protecting division commander."

One of the things that makes a good commander is the speed with which he can adjust to changed conditions, and the general had just been introduced to another reality of the ever-new U.S. Army.

The general told that story the other day as he stood next to the country's secretary of defense to formally lift the Army's ban on women in combat units. No, not every woman -- or man -- may be fit for combat, but now every trooper has a chance to qualify for it. Which is as it should be -- at last.

Gen. Dempsey, it turns out, is a rich source of instructive stories. Not to mention comments that apply to more than their immediate subject. It was during this same news conference that he discussed the considerable problem of sexual harassment, not to mention outright abuse and rape, in the service. He traced it to treating women as less than equal. To quote from his remarks:

"When you have one part of the population that is designated as warriors and another part that's designated as something else, I think that disparity begins to establish a psychology that in some cases led to that environment. I have to believe the more we can treat people equally, the more likely they are to treat each other equally."

When you have one part of the population that serves in the military and another part that doesn't, a rift is likely to develop between those who have defended the country in uniform and those who have never had that privilege. And it is a privilege. As well as an education, not just an obligation. It's also a necessity in a democracy. For the divide between citizen and soldier may only grow greater as the years pass, and develop into mutual suspicion, even mutual contempt. And divided we fall.

Unlike generations of Americans, this one may be remarkably ignorant of both military life and the military virtues, not having been exposed to either. Which is why every citizen of a republic should serve in the military for at least a time. In order to understand that freedom does not come without obligation -- including a military obligation. And to realize anew that discipline, far from being the antithesis of freedom, is one of its requirements. They go together, like liberty and law.

The idea and ideal of the citizen-soldier has been at the core of democracy since the ancient Athenians invented it and entrusted the defense of their city-states to their hoplites, the first citizen-soldiers. Divide citizenship from military service and something essential to the preservation of democracy since the Greeks has been lost. Democracy and its defense will have been separated, and that is not a wholesome arrangement for either. To quote Thomas Jefferson, "Every citizen should be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free state."

A professional army is a great asset -- a necessity, as many a democracy has discovered when it neglected to train one. But a republic needs citizen-soldiers, too. Without them, democracy is divided at its very core: between those who defend it and those who are defended.

It is not a healthy division, for the result is a mutual ignorance that leads to mutual estrangement -- between those citizens who have known military service and those who haven't. It is a division no democracy can afford. For the military needs a connection with the citizenry, and the citizenry with its military. Both benefit, and the country benefits most of all.

Or as Gen. Dempsey noted: "When you have one part of the population that is designated as warriors and another part that is designated as something else, I think that disparity begins to establish a psychology...." And it is not a healthy psychology, for it divides rather than unites. And united we stand.


TOPICS: Editorial
KEYWORDS: foreignaffairs; genmartindempsey; stupidity; stupity; usmilitary; womenincombat
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1 posted on 02/08/2013 9:37:52 AM PST by Kaslin
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To: Kaslin
Gen. Dempsey, it turns out, is a rich source of instructive stories.

There was a chick in the turret of a vehicle he was in once.

Helluva story, sir. Put 'em in the Infantry!

2 posted on 02/08/2013 9:45:02 AM PST by Future Snake Eater (CrossFit.com)
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To: Kaslin
"When you have one part of the population that is designated as warriors and another part that's designated as something else, I think that disparity begins to establish a psychology that in some cases led to that environment. I have to believe the more we can treat people equally, the more likely they are to treat each other equally."

So I guess this means women will have to do the same PT test to the same standards as men and they'll be REQUIRED to sign up for the draft. equal and all, right?

3 posted on 02/08/2013 9:45:42 AM PST by TurboZamboni (Looting the future to bribe the present)
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To: Kaslin

The militant leftist campaign to pussy-fi American men and de-feminize American women takes a giant step forward.


4 posted on 02/08/2013 9:48:03 AM PST by Iron Munro (I Miss America, don't you?)
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To: Kaslin

I disagree with the General as I believe the suspicions, the distrust are as contrived as everything else the class warfare mongers persue to benefit their personal goals.

It’s not natural for people to distrust their military unless someone causes them to distrust those they depend upon for their freedom, their security.


5 posted on 02/08/2013 9:48:19 AM PST by rockinqsranch (Dems, Libs, Socialists, call 'em what you will, they ALL have fairies livin' in their trees.)
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To: Kaslin
For the divide between citizen and soldier may only grow greater as the years pass, and develop into mutual suspicion, even mutual contempt. And divided we fall.

What is this guy talking about? I think this might be what he hopes happens (General?). I'm confused. I don't know if there has been a time in history where the average citizen was more supportive of our Military and members except maybe WWII.

There are now private charities and fundraisers to provide additional aid and support for everything from military wives and children for active service to Wounded Warriors. I trust and have confidence that if our soldiers ever had to "pick a side" (as I think this guy might be eluding too in his Us Vs. Them scenario) they would sooner go against the goevernment once the lines were clear and fight for the freedom of the people.

6 posted on 02/08/2013 9:49:38 AM PST by Tenacious 1 ("The British are Coming (to confiscate weapons)" - Paul Revere (We know how that ended))
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To: Kaslin

His story sounds as if he was disappointed........that it was a female whose knee he had just slapped........


7 posted on 02/08/2013 9:49:48 AM PST by Red Badger (Lincoln freed the slaves. Obama just got them ALL back......................)
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To: Kaslin

Did no one else pick up on the fact that he slapped the gunner on the leg expecting it to be a man? I am surprised she didn’t file a sexual harassment suit against the General.


8 posted on 02/08/2013 9:53:03 AM PST by heylady (“Sometimes I wish I could be a Democrat and then I remember I have a soul.”( Deb))
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To: Future Snake Eater

Does anybody but me doubt the general’s story?


9 posted on 02/08/2013 9:53:41 AM PST by shove_it (Long ago Huxley, Orwell and Rand warned us about 0banana's USA.)
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To: Kaslin

“Hi, I’m Amanda; I’ll be your turret-gunner today”.


10 posted on 02/08/2013 9:53:49 AM PST by Rebelbase ( .223, .224, whatever it takes....)
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To: Iron Munro

dempsey is a typical perfumed pentagon prince, the type of officer who, as someone else stated, would obey orders to fire on American citizens.

women have been in combat throughout history. our female soldiers can hold their own as well as a male in most combat situations. women in combat is not the issue; women in combat units is.


11 posted on 02/08/2013 9:54:10 AM PST by bravo whiskey (“People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.”)
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To: shove_it
Does anybody but me doubt the general’s story?

There was a recent Episode of "Last Man Standing" that featured an female Iraq war vet that had lost both her legs. She was a Turret gunner.

12 posted on 02/08/2013 9:59:03 AM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: All

And with the rules endorsed by Dempsey and the other Perfumed Princes.....

The next time he slaps someones leg in a Humvee it could very well be a SHEMALE.


13 posted on 02/08/2013 10:03:54 AM PST by LegendHasIt
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To: Kaslin
and I slapped the turret gunner around the leg

When is his court-martial for sexual harassment?

14 posted on 02/08/2013 10:17:36 AM PST by donna (Pray for revival.)
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To: bravo whiskey
"our female soldiers can hold their own as well as a male in most combat situations."

Whatever you are on, ship me a case of it because it must be some pretty powerful stuff.

15 posted on 02/08/2013 10:18:58 AM PST by Wyrd bi ful ard (Gone Galt, 11/07/12)
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To: Rebelbase; am; JDoutrider; rockinqsranch; Iron Munro; Future Snake Eater
"I slapped the turret gunner around the leg and I said, 'Who are you?' And she leaned down and said, 'I'm Amanda.' "

This is either crap, or a sad illustration of what is going on in our military. Put the female aspect aside and ponder this as I did:
I pistured myself in the turret gunner position and thought back to when I was in the Army. If Wm. Westmoreland had climbed into my PC and asked who I was I wouldn't have replied, "I'm Jim". I'd have been crapping my pants and half screaming as I tried to stand (or sit) straight while spitting out that I was; "Spec Four ***** Charlie company, 504thS&T, SIR!" (I probably would have added my serial number out of habit, too)

" Hi, I'm Amanda" -- GIMME A FREAKIN' BREAK!

16 posted on 02/08/2013 10:19:06 AM PST by Baynative (I'm reading a book about anti-gravity. I can't put it down.)
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To: Kaslin
It's interesting that the Israeli Defense Forces who once had women in the fiercest of combat situations, have removed them, for one very simple reason: when a woman was wounded, surrounding male soldiers would stop what they were doing and jump to her aid instead of simply yelling for a medic.

The Israelis concluded that it is simply the instinct of a man to protect a woman. The data that leads to the conclusion is costly and deadly. Too many Israeli men died supplying it.
17 posted on 02/08/2013 10:23:27 AM PST by righttackle44 (Take scalps. Leave the bodies as a warning.)
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To: Baynative

Good point, and so true.


18 posted on 02/08/2013 10:26:09 AM PST by rockinqsranch (Dems, Libs, Socialists, call 'em what you will, they ALL have fairies livin' in their trees.)
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To: Kaslin
It was during this same news conference that he discussed the considerable problem of sexual harassment, not to mention outright abuse and rape, in the service. He traced it to treating women as less than equal.

Except that most rape victims in the military are men.

19 posted on 02/08/2013 10:32:49 AM PST by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: heylady

Not every female is a fire-breathing ball of anti-male hatred.


20 posted on 02/08/2013 10:33:04 AM PST by righttackle44 (Take scalps. Leave the bodies as a warning.)
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To: Kaslin
Greenberg the Moron speaks:
No, not every woman -- or man -- may be fit for combat, but now every trooper has a chance to qualify for it. Which is as it should be -- at last.

Yeah, I'm sure the Battling Bastards of Wake agreed with you, Pauly, especially after they got out of those Japanese prison camps, where they saw American nurses, captured in the fall of Bataan, raped repeatedly until they got pregnant, and then trussed up with their thighs together when their time was due, so they died screaming in childbirth. We could ask the nurses in question what they think about your satisfying little liberal chestnut, but like I said, they were all murdered by the Japanese.
21 posted on 02/08/2013 10:33:52 AM PST by lentulusgracchus
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To: Kaslin

Just being a trigger puller doesn’t make women have the capacity to do an offensive combat operation where brute strength, speed, and the mindset that are necessary for victory.

And furthermore, women being KIAs has nothing to do with combat effectiveness. Always see and read this sorry canard being played by the leftists.

Obama and the rest of the DUms have found their “Yes” girl in Dempsey.


22 posted on 02/08/2013 10:38:08 AM PST by Red Steel
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To: TurboZamboni
So I guess this means women will have to do the same PT test to the same standards as men.

Having done the PT test in basic back in the 60's, I would say passing the test wouldn't be that big of deal for a woman in good physical shape.

23 posted on 02/08/2013 10:39:32 AM PST by Starstruck (All goverments become tyrannical. Individuals determine when they do.)
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To: Red Steel
“Yes” girl in Dempsey.

Yes I am sure most of us have noticed how dumpster Dempsey clearly is doing the bidding of our Pharaoh president.

24 posted on 02/08/2013 10:42:16 AM PST by Mouton (108th MI Group.....68-71)
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To: Kaslin

generally... the problem isn’t having women in the military... it’s the reduction of qualifying standards in order to allow them in. this leads to weaker then possible units... and when your life is on the line, you want to make sure you’ve done everything you can to minimize the chance of failure

this includes optimizing each member to the maximum potential for the role

being built weaker, by design, is not optimal... obviously


25 posted on 02/08/2013 10:44:58 AM PST by sten (fighting tyranny never goes out of style)
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To: verga
There was a recent Episode of "Last Man Standing" that featured an female Iraq war vet that had lost both her legs. She was a Turret gunner.

As soon as Tammy Duckworth got out of rehab in 2006 or 2005, she was instantly glommed onto by Dick Durbin and Rahm Emmanuel. They ran her in a conservative GOP CD in Chicagoland in 2006, I think it was. She almost won. As consolation prize, Obama put her at the VA (good idea), and then Durbin the Turban and the boyz ran her again last fall in another district that had been gerrymandered to get rid of a Tea Party Republican, and she won. Now she's a prize heifer in the New Dem Party ..... which makes me think she's probably gay to boot. No husband, no guy in her life, she was an Illinois National Guard Blackhawk driver and a captain when she got hit near the end of 2004 in Iraq. She's a double amputee, super attitude, good trooper, and now she's in Congress.

Just sorry to see Durbin the Turbin and The Impostor doing better for Iraq War vets than the GOP's perfumed princes.

26 posted on 02/08/2013 10:45:16 AM PST by lentulusgracchus
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To: Kaslin

My impression of Dempsey is that he is a tool.


27 posted on 02/08/2013 10:45:33 AM PST by clintonh8r (Happy to be represented by Lt. Col. Allen West)
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To: Kaslin
To hell with 5000 years of recorded human history - the liberals' epitaph.

This article is gibberish.

28 posted on 02/08/2013 10:46:04 AM PST by skeeter
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To: Kaslin
I don't like this guy.....I don't like his look....

You know how you sometimes look at someone and get that first impression....Well...I don't like this guy...

29 posted on 02/08/2013 10:51:47 AM PST by unread
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To: Kaslin

He’s already talked about lowering standards.


30 posted on 02/08/2013 10:55:13 AM PST by andyk (I have sworn...eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.)
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To: lentulusgracchus
Just sorry to see Durbin the Turbin and The Impostor doing better for Iraq War vets than the GOP's perfumed princes.

None of which, he quickly added, reflects so much as a mote of dust on Pres. George W. Bush, who has been tireless in his devotion to veterans, disabled veterans particularly, and veterans' affairs.

If Barky had a pair somewhere, he'd appoint Dubya to the VA.

31 posted on 02/08/2013 10:59:20 AM PST by lentulusgracchus
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To: Starstruck

Basic PT is a joke. Can a women carry a 200 lb wounded man for a long distance and at the same time fire a weapon accurately, and keep on humping along through out the day having the ability to do it over and over again? A man may be called upon to do that. I can can do it but can a girl do it? I doubt it. Can a women fight hand-to-hand if need be and beat a man in a fight — I can do that too - again can a women do that? ...Not with any seriousness. They can however, sit back at a distance shoot from defensive positions, but that’s not taking it to the enemy in any offensive operations and be effective at the same time. If the enemy is ever on the same par with US in a fight, and your unit is filled up with women. You’re going to lose.


32 posted on 02/08/2013 10:59:20 AM PST by Red Steel
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To: Baynative; verga

Fn A! That would have been my reply too, 50 years ago. There are many good comments following the linked article. One is on point IMO:

“His turret gunner got in a vehicle in a convoy of at least 4 vehicles

Because it was the CG’s vehicle it was not first although other times it may have been and did a short drive from one camp to A close by location or camp and then eventually returned to the original camp

We know it was a short trip or as CG he would have taken a chopper

The convoy was not intent on engaging the enemy and in fact with the CG they would try and avoid the enemy

That is a great job for the female gunner, I convoyed from Kuwait to Baghdad over 3 days and had several females in our convoy

That is totally different then an infantry unit going for two weeks into hostile ares looking to engage the enemy

Females are not suited for the Infantry”


33 posted on 02/08/2013 10:59:58 AM PST by shove_it (Long ago Huxley, Orwell and Rand warned us about 0banana's USA.)
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To: <1/1,000,000th%
Except that most rape victims in the military are men.

Mostly women but men do get raped. They need to clarify sexual assault though as it has a broad meaning. A grope is sexual assault and it happens a lot with foreign nationals. They include these in their reports and it looks like our military men are a bunch or rapists. A lot of the local desert denizens don't see women running around un-veiled.

34 posted on 02/08/2013 11:01:26 AM PST by USAF80
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To: Kaslin

A nation that believes women are somehow equivalent to men in form and function and treatment expectations, and sends them off to war to do combat, does not deserve victory in war.


35 posted on 02/08/2013 11:01:41 AM PST by mbarker12474 (If thine enemy offend thee, give his childe a drum.)
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To: Red Steel
If the enemy is ever on the same par with US in a fight, and your unit is filled up with women. You’re going to lose.

That noise you hear in the background is a posse of Chinese generals smacking their lips.

36 posted on 02/08/2013 11:02:37 AM PST by lentulusgracchus
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To: Kaslin

Based on what this clown said most Air Force guys would feel like second class citizens as they are not “warriors”.


37 posted on 02/08/2013 11:04:04 AM PST by USAF80
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To: mbarker12474
A nation that believes women are somehow equivalent to men in form and function and treatment expectations ....

Actually, I think nobody believes that, not even the policy proponents.

What they're doing is punching menu items on an ideological bill of fare that keeps the 'Rat Party together. This is the year the lesbians get their macho-girl itch scratched. Reality later.

38 posted on 02/08/2013 11:05:16 AM PST by lentulusgracchus
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To: <1/1,000,000th%
Except that most rape victims in the military are men.

Which is why we need a bunch of double-Y-chromosomal sadists and perverts in the military. Makes sense to me!

39 posted on 02/08/2013 11:07:39 AM PST by lentulusgracchus
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To: Kaslin
This article is about as shallow in its understanding of the real issues, as it is possible to imagine. With very little modification, it would be satire on a par with one of the voyages of Dean Swift's Gulliver.

Perhaps the most significant aspect of all mammalian life, is the profound differences of the sexes--the reality from which all continuing life emerges. Anyone who does not understand this, is very confused. Anyone who seeks to somehow change this via revolutionary policy decisions is beyond hope.

For a Conservative discussion of the Feminist Absurdity.

Frankly, it is not very reassuring--if this is how General Dempsey actually reasons--that he is the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. God spare us, another War, while such people are in charge!

William Flax

40 posted on 02/08/2013 11:09:28 AM PST by Ohioan
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To: Kaslin

The disparity starts at BIRTH and furthered when the Army conducts physical fitness tests.

Make ALL of the women pass the men’s standard or muster out, and I won’t say another word about it.

Until then, accept the wise words of one un-named Marine general officer;

“Any system that judges both sexes by the same standard can only shortchange one and victimize the other.”


41 posted on 02/08/2013 11:10:20 AM PST by SJSAMPLE
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To: Kaslin

It is indeed a privilege to be a general in the US military. However, to serve as a grunt on the front line during hand to hand combat often takes coercion. Can we compel women to fight this way? Do we want to compel them to fight? The general is full of pc bs.


42 posted on 02/08/2013 11:11:32 AM PST by The_Media_never_lie (Actually, they lie when it suits them! The crooked MS media must be defeated any way it can be done!)
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To: Kaslin

I’m Amanda!? Lol. I was assigned as General Patton’s (the younger) driver for about a year. Saying “Hi, I’m John was a thought that never crossed my mind.” Keeping my M16 in fine fettle was something that did however because he was a stickler on that.


43 posted on 02/08/2013 11:14:21 AM PST by jwalsh07
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To: Kaslin

There’s assessing the situation as one arrives or just winging it. They still teach that in war college? How this guy ever made it to the top,, I’m too lazy to check his bio.. what a sad commentary.. sad. jmo


44 posted on 02/08/2013 11:16:16 AM PST by NormsRevenge (Semper Fi)
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To: Future Snake Eater

Because that chic was a turret gunner once proves women are fierce combat warriors!


45 posted on 02/08/2013 11:17:48 AM PST by The_Media_never_lie (Actually, they lie when it suits them! The crooked MS media must be defeated any way it can be done!)
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To: shove_it
I join you in doubting the story.

When a general asks a soldier to identify themself, the correct answer is not "Amanda" -- nor is it "Steve", "Bill" or "Stan".

"Corporal Henderson, sir!" might be a good attempt.

46 posted on 02/08/2013 11:27:53 AM PST by ClearCase_guy (Nothing will change until after the war.)
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To: Kaslin

“I’m Amanda”?

That’s pretty informal. Not even a sir?


47 posted on 02/08/2013 11:33:19 AM PST by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: Kaslin

She was in the turret BECAUSE Dempsey would be present and photographers would record it. It’s called PC.


48 posted on 02/08/2013 11:38:16 AM PST by TalBlack (Evil doesn't have a day job.)
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To: Baynative
You missed it.

Hi, I'm Amanda a man da.

49 posted on 02/08/2013 11:50:11 AM PST by B4Ranch (When democracy turns to tyranny, we still get to vote. We just won't use voting booths to do it.)
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To: Kaslin

A soldier would not answer the General’s question like that.

My BS meter is smokin’.


50 posted on 02/08/2013 12:24:51 PM PST by Blue Collar Christian (Pray for revival. <BCC><)
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