Posted on 06/13/2012 6:05:21 PM PDT by Grig
This may be the post that gets me zotted, and if so, so be it, but it would be a nice sign of respect for free speech, and just plain old maturity if that doesn’t happen. I won’t lose sleep either way though.
All through the Clinton years FR played a key role in helping me really come to appreciate the wisdom of the founding fathers as Clinton violated their principles in so many ways. I found here a large community of wise, informed posters from a diverse background that added depth and clarity to the news of the day. It was here on FR that I found out about the WTC attack. Being Canadian, the second amendment always seemed kind of silly to me, but through FR I learned how wrong that view was and now wish my country had such a right for it’s citizens.
That was then, now more and more it has felt like FR has dwindled into an insular, nearly feral, group of political and religious thought police whose mission is to ferret out anybody who doesn’t fit their orthodoxy and get rid of them, while propagandizing against anything the disagree with. At times it feels more energy is spent attacking those who should be seen as allies rather than the true enemies. I used to spend a fair bit of time here each day, now perhaps a quick look once every few weeks because of this change in climate. I know many have left because of it, many have already posted their concerns about it, and their wise observations and suggestions have fallen on deaf ears.
I do feel I have a small measure of responsibility for the change (but no guilt). When FR started to fail to live up to it’s own rules about not bashing religions (when it came to my religion) we Mormon posters decided that instead of being party to the creation of long threads filled with contention that made it hard for the moderators see the difference in our behavior and theirs, we decided instead to simply post articles putting forward our position and leave the critics to show their true colors. (see http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2013341/posts). Not only did the anti-Mormon posters oblige us and demonstrate the level of hate and bigotry in their hearts, but so did the anti-Momons within the leadership of FR. And thus began the decent of FR from a vibrant ad-hoc conservative think tank into an echo chamber of yes men with a loud group of religious bigots leading the way. It is sad to see it come to this, and I hope that the day comes when sanity returns. Something that needs to happen for that day to come is for the majority of people around here to face this reality: If you are not supporting Mitt Romney, you are playing into Obama’s hands. Any hopes of a brokered convention or third party conservative super-candidate are nothing but delusions fueled by a denial of reality. It comes down to either Mitt or Obama, and if you are not supporting Mitt you are helping Obama. Deal with it.
And don’t try to hide behind the idea that Mitt losing will be good in the long term for conservatism. That is putting your partisanship above your patriotism. Obama has done massive damage to the USA, and if you give him another 4 years you may not have a USA left at the end of his term. What good will this theoretical transformation of the GOP then? Truth is that if Mitt loses, no matter how conservative or liberal his campaign and policies are, the media will blame it on him being too right-wing and drive the GOP to the left as much as they can. Also, the good of the country should come first if you want to call yourself a patriot, and having Mitt in the White House will be much better for the USA than having Obama there.
While Mitt is not perfect (nobody is) I find many of the attacks on him so over the top, so full of exaggeration and fear mongering that ignores contrary evidence or any sense of proportion that I can’t help but suspect they hyperbole is just a mask for darker motives. The fact that in many cases these attacks come from those who also display great hostility towards Mormonism says it all. Deny it all you want, it is easy to see. For a satirical look at it, check this video I made: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG68yz-mMgE
I am going to make some predictions I would like to make, and I hope this thread stays around so that in years to come you can all look back and see how it turned out:
- every conservative you respect will vote for Mitt, all of them (perhaps a couple excepts, but not many) will even endorse him and perhaps campaign with him
- Mitt will become the next POTUS in a landslide victory,
- President Romney will do very well on the economy and on foreign affairs/national security
- President Romney will conduct himself with honor and integrity both in office and in his personal life
- He will be a better president than either Bush was
- You will hear conservative pundits call him this generation’s Ronald Reagan, or Ronald Reagan’s 3rd term or something along those lines
- President Romney will be re-elected in another big victory
- His Vice President will become POTUS after his second term
- If there is an assassination attempt on him, it will either be by the Chineese, or by some religiously motivated nutjob (Islamic or Evangelical)
And for those of you anti-Mormons out there, I have some prediction for you too. And these apply even if Romney is not elected as POTUS:
- Your grandchildren will call Mormons Christians, and look at Mormonism as the third branch of Christianity alongside Catholicism and Protestantism
- All the attacks against Romney that stem from the anti-Mormon garbage you have bought into will result in the attacker either apologizing, or in their loss of credibility. The more anti-Mormon attacks are made in the mainstream media, the worse the attackers will look.
- Your grandchildren will likewise look at such attacks as being as bigoted and wrong, even when they come from you.
- Some of your grandchildren or great-grandchildren will become Mormons, and after you are dead they will have temple ordinances performed for you, and you will be glad at the time that they do.
I dare you to post your own predictions of what a Romney presidency will result in.
I dare FR to leave this thread open and available for comments and to not delete a single comment from it.
I dare FR to start respecting freedom of religion by not playing favorites towards one religious group as is currently done by disallowing Mormon caucus threads, and if that is too big a challenge for you, the do away with the Religion Forum altogether.
I dare you all to give Mormons and Mormonism the respect it deserves to have as the 4th largest denomination in the USA, stalwart defender of traditional values, glowing example of Christian charity at home and around the world, the most conservative people of all religious groups, and staunch defenders of the principles of the constitution and values that built the country. No matter how much you disagree with us on religious matters, we are and should be treated as valuable conservative allies. Until FR does that, all they do is shoot themselves in the foot.
Maybe too isolated, too much elevation, un-coolness or something ~ maybe the Samoan football players get all the attention (and aren't those guys all supposed to be Seventh Day Adventists anyway).
The street system was interesting, but not worth revisiting.
You'll notice I didn't even need to get around to doctrines.
Unless the materials were specially protected ~ like the Spanish cross buried with the dead guy at Spanish HIll PA in the late 1500s ~ they are just gone.
Only the most acid resistant goods have survived just the last 400 years. Ceramics, fired clay, large iron objects ~ that's about it.
Otherwise there's no evidence of any pre-Columbian iron culture in Eastern North America, nor should there be. In the West things are different, but we still don't see iron implements ~ or much of anything in terms of high culture. Still we know Buddhists of some sort made it to the PacNW, and Japanese made it to the Zuni area, Costa Rica, Chile, and other areas in pre-Columbian times, but there's no evidence they engaged in making iron objects ~ and they knew how!
Anyone else recalling Saundra Duffy pushing the limits of good conduct and then constantly claiming censorship and martyrdom when called on it?
Well, we have Grig here being a doofus and anti_FReeping from the trollpit of trewblew.
And we have MrPiper posting garbage to provoke a mod reaaction and then whining about it as well.
Couldn’t be that they are trying to fake an event like Dan Rather did, right?
No, that wouldn’t happen.
Grig has chosen to disbelieve people like me; that's his error. FReeper saywhatagain wrote TRUE words when he posted:
Saying that many dislike Mitt's politics because of his Mormonism is no different than liberals saying to disagree with O is racist.
No Mormon church that I've ever seen sports a cross, and Mormonism's own history clearly illustrates how Mormonism is separate from Christianity, except for those who would quibble over the meaning of the word "is."
And P-Marlowe, the picture becomes even more clear as you post another obvious, demonstrable TRUTH:
Just as Mormons are, in fact, wolves in sheep's clothing pretending to be Christians, Romney is a wolf in sheep's clothing pretending to be a Republican.
The psy-op convincing patriots that the world would end and Republicans would be as weak as kittens if Obama got a 2nd term, is hidden in plain sight.
Conservatives and Republicans could very likely DOMINATE Obama if he got a 2nd term, as Obama is despised by at least half of Americans.
Romney, judging by his record and by the overall composition of Republicans in Congress, woud most likely DOMINATE Conservatives if he got a first term.
THEREFORE the only reasonable way for me to vote in the presidential, and it is MY DUTY to vote, is to leave it to God -- and Americans willing to sanction either Romney or Obama -- to decide which authoritarian will be the next President.
This, FRiends, is why I perceive that at this stage of the game, the NUMBER ONE PRIORITY for American conservatives is see Romney denied a landslide. Grig himself has illustrated what would happen: What was in reality a desperate referendum against Obama, would be twisted by Romney, the GOP-e, and moderates into an enthusiastic mandate and endorsement of Romney's "progressivism."
LOOK BEFORE YOU LEAP.
THX 1138
Are you a former Mormon?
Unfortunately, for Mormons, and other so blinded, the Lord will destroy an unrepentant Babylon.
The Harlot that sitteth upon the beast is condemned of herself.
Mormons are trying to save their religion, not their souls.
How much less, those that they evangelize.
TF replies: Romneycare, passed by an alliance of RINO's and Democrats.
And that's not counting the crushing regulation and control on virtually every aspect of energy and food production, as well as consumption, via the whole Global Warming hype that Romney embraces.
A Romney presidency would mean a Republican President bent on bending Americans to government via environmental regulation. COUNT ON IT.
One way or the other (unless a miracle happens), our next president is going to be an authoritarian statist who seeks to expand government control over our lives. Voting for Romney fails to deal with it -- it is whistling past the graveyard.
If it comes to O v R, there is only one way I can see to DEAL WITH IT: cast a presidential vote for the sole purpose of hoping enough patriots are equally as contemptuous of Government Growth, and that when the votes are counted, the vote was so split that authoritarian president in the White House in 2013 is looking at an electorate that rejected him 2 to 1. Forcing a plurality "victory" is the only way to help conservatives fight the next statist president, whoever he ends up being.
Yes, that's clear to many of us.
We need to try to understand, though, that there are many people who chart their lives based upon their fears. They consistently choose what they perceive to be the safest, least challenging path. They view people like us as overly aggressive in the face of danger. They persistently and repetitively describe the dangers that they see because they convince themselves that we must somehow not see the dangers that have robbed them of the courage to directly confront the source of their terror.
There isn't any cure for them; it is just their basic nature. They will consistently choose flight over fight. They deserve our patience and respect.
All right, let's assume for the sake of argument that I'm thinking small. My initial question still stands. Why aren't you helping? The journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step. I've taken mine. Come on and take yours. If my goldfish gets eaten by the sharks, at least I die free.
Wrong again.
I haven't been wrong yet. The GOP-E has told you that you have to support Romney -- and that's exactly what you're doing. You may as well own it.
I voted for Gingrich.
I caucused for Santorum. And I won't vote for who the GOP-E tells me I must support because I won't support an abortionist, I won't support a gun-grabber, I won't support a statist and I won't support a liberal. I'm accountable to God for my vote and that's that.
Now, the choice comes down to two "most-viable" candidates: Obama & whoever the GOP runs. You want me to vote for someone other than the GOP candidate? Fine. Give me someone more viable than the GOP candidate and I will *DEFINITELY* vote for him. You have until Nov. 6th, 2012 when I walk into that voting booth to to get it done. Take your time.
No. YOUR choice comes down to two 'most viable' candidates. My choice still comes down to the entire remaining field. And again ... you want me to give you someone. Why will you not seek someone out for yourself? Educate yourself. Learn about Virgil Goode or Tom Hoefling or someone else, instead of tying your conservatism into a knot over Mitt Romney.
The converse is also true. You can, if you wish, try to convince me why I should agree with you and support Mitt Romney. However, "he's less statist" ain't gonna cut it.
I'm not beholden to the GOP
Kinda looks like it from where I stand. Let's build a real party. What do you say?
I'm beholden to whoever stands the best chance of beating Obama and I don't care who that is. If you don't feel the same, then I presume you are either desperate for some way to feel good about yourself (country be damned) and/or you actually prefer Obama for whatever reason. Knowingly voting for someone who you know darn well doesn't stand a snowball's chance is an act of futility.
Holy False Dichotomy, Batman! The ultimate ABO fall-back argument! As a conservative, I won't vote for a leftist so, hey, I must REALLY support Obama!
It's quite interesting how you people feel you can define my vote for a third party candidate as what it's not -- somehow a vote for someone else -- but you won't define your own vote for Romney as what it actually is -- a vote for Mitt Romney. Why won't you own your vote? Your slap at my patriotism aside, I love my country enough to tell my political party when it's wrong, because my country is more important than my political party. I hope yours is too.
They can, but name the last time a principled group of conservatives displaced the GOP's presidential candidate *after* the nominating convention? You can't. Local, State and US Congress races? Oh, heck yes! Presidential races? I admire your optimism, but wishful thinking won't get you anywhere and we lack the leverage to force it. Go fish.
Obviously, it's never happened in a Presidential contest. Am I happy about that? No. Does it mean I surrender? Absolutely not.
Now ask yourself how leverage is generated. Sitting back and accepting Romney not only fails to generate leverage for the right, it gives HIM leverage against US. How's that going to work in the long run?
If the majority of likely voter polling indicates the town-drunk leads all others opposing Obama, then that's who I vote for. Don't like the town-drunk? Then get your guy out in front.
I'm trying. You seem to be voting for the town drunk. But I notice you skipped past my question about how voting for the town drunk advances conservatism. That's because you know good and well that a vote for the town drunk, or a vote for Mitt Romney, won't do it. Had you thought otherwise you wouldn't have supported Newt, you'd have supported Romney from the start. And we both know it.
I don't care *who* it is as long as Obama is gone.
Absolutely valid. I have to be fair and grant that. Obama is an utter menace. But I don't feel replacing him with Romney is an option that will prove acceptable to save our Republic. I will vote for the person who I feel IS an acceptable choice. That is my right as a citizen.
We have three or four SCOTUS justices in their 80's. Given those appointments are for *LIFE* and we already know Obama favors lib/prog/lesbian/whatever Justices (Kagen & Sotomayor), I won't vote in any way that gives any statistical advantage to Obama that might lead to him picking one or more replacement justices next term. You can give him all the advantage you like, but don't even bother trying to sell me an infeasible long-shot.
Had a good look at Romney's judicial appointment record? You're whistling past the graveyard.
For the nth time, I'm voting for whoever stands the best chance of beating Obama at this point, whoever that may be. Currently that's the GOP candidate. Don't foolishly presume that indicates I support the GOP. If you get your candidate ahead of the GOP candidate, I'll switch in a heartbeat, GOP be damned. It is just that simple.
If you help that candidate, maybe he can get ahead. If you don't, your Declaration of Independence is just talk. Either way, if you want to advance conservatism, you're going to have to make a move. You can do it. You'll have to do it. I can't do it for you.
What? A moment ago, you were all gung-ho on the miraculous power of a "a principled group of conservatives" doing the impossible. Get them together and make it known wide and far that we are seeking a primary challenger for the next election. We'll have 4 years - *YEARS* - to get our act together and apply whatever pressure we can bear. Right now we only have 4 months. You couldn't even get conservatives to agree on a candidate in four months. That's why the most viable candidate is the only sane option.
And I still am. But if you think conservative opposition within the Republican Party -- which is the context in which I was speaking, and which you snipped right out of that reply -- could defeat a President Romney in 2016 you'd probably want to take another look at your dictionary definition of 'sanity'. It wouldn't happen within the framework of the Republican Party, but I suspect you know that. We'd need a conservative party, which is the entire point of my initial reply to you. In the meantime, though, I guess we'll see you in four years. Better late than never.
Look, I don't care to hear about your fantasy candidate. I don't care to hear the same old retreaded complaints about Romney - you're preaching to the choir.
You're voting for the man, not me. I'm choppin', but no chips are flyin'. If I really am 'preaching to the choir', why won't you sing? You're good at telling us you dislike Romney and you aren't beholden to the GOP. I ask you to prove it.
All I want to hear about is a specific candidate and how we convince all the needed voting blocs to pull the lever for that guy over Obama. Then we need to see some polling of likely voters indicating that they are buying what we are selling. I don't care if that's the GOP candidate, some stealth candidate or even the town drunk. You get him in the lead -- I vote for him. Plain & simple.
Really, it doesn't matter which candidate I name -- because you won't do anything until I do your work for you and 'get him in the lead'. Until you're willing to help, your claim about being willing to desert the GOP is just talk, and we know how much that costs.
For the record, I love the CP's platform with only a couple of exceptions in the area of defense, and I find Virgil Goode has more principle in his little finger than Mitt Romney has in his entire body. I've talked with Tom Hoefling, who I admire as a man of principle and who is an outstanding social conservative. Those are my two. Yours is Mitt Romney.
Look, despite our difference I don't fault you a scrap for what you're doing. I'm just challenging you to use what are clearly considerable powers of speech and communication to think outside the GOP's box. You can do it.
- Your grandchildren will call Mormons Christians, and look at Mormonism as the third branch of Christianity alongside Catholicism and Protestantism”
Have you ever heard of Eastern Orthodoxy? That’s the 3rd Branch of Christianity and it’s existed for a very long time.
Mormonism would have to change so much to be considered Christian it couldn’t be considered Mormonism anymore.
Linda and many others here are posting PROOF of Romney's lack of it. LF makes the sad observation: I know it would not matter to them, character doesn't matter, only winning against the other liar, cheat, thief..........
Obama was "Hope and Change."
ABO is "Hope he'll Change."
We know how the first one worked out.
My third man on the ladder truck is a Mormon. He is very conservative. We go shooting together and he can’t stand Romney. So I guess he is an odd ball according to you.
Read post 535 again, I doubt that the Mormon you know is a freeper.
Bravo! Epic conservative apologetics (in the classic sense).
Most of all, romney has basically flipped off the conservatives. He refused dozens of invites to pro-life and pro-family events. He refused to sign a pro-life pledge that every other candidate signed. He said he does not have to reach out to us, that we will vote for him. He is so arrogant it makes me sick. At least Obama has enough respect for his voters, that he goes to there events and ask for there vote. Romney and gop can kiss our @$$.
Catholicism and Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy.
What do all of them agree on? That Mormonism is not a Christian religion, that it is it’s own separate religion,
Grigg has already been zotted but he and his buddies at an anti-freerepublic site are still reading this thread.
Is there a way to get my older pings quicker than just paging back? She insisted everyone call her a Christian, said some disparaging things about the bible, Paul of the bible and.....I want to read my post to be sure what else. Basically her religion and feelings were right and my faith was wrong, but she was not nice about it.
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