[Catholic Caucus] SSPX. As I was saying….

Fr. Z's Blog ^ | September 14, 2022 | Fr. John Zuhlsdorf

[ebb tide]

[Catholic Caucus] SSPX. As I was saying….

I read something familiar at LifeSite in a piece about Bp. Athanasius Schneiders remarks about the SSPX.

I have often explained in these electronic pages that…

• There is no question that the Mass celebrated is in a Catholic Rite. The priests of the SSPX are Catholic priests and not some other kind of priests. Regardless of their unique and somewhat thorny canonical status, they are priests of the Catholic Church and not some other Church. They are even able to receive faculties from competent authority. They validly absolve sins even when there is no danger of death. They witness marriages and say the nuptial Masses.
• If they can receive faculties they are not suspended.

The LifeSite piece said …

Pope Francis already granted SSPX priests faculties to hear Confessions during the Year of Mercy and continued that permission when the year ended. He then gave local bishops the ability to allow Catholics to be married by SSPX priests, in what was seen at the time as a path toward possible closer links with the Vatican.

Bishop Schneider referenced these permissions, saying, “How can a pope give to priests who are outside the Church canonical ordinary faculties? How can a bishop grant such faculties to a priest who is outside the Church?”

Several other points in that piece can be underscored.

• First, the SSPX isn’t doing anything other than what was done before the Council.
• Next, “the society is not in “schism” or is there an “excommunication” on members of the SSPX, he said, and thus “they are not outside the Church.”
• Next, “when there is an emergency of faith, the canonical legal aspect is secondary and the first [priority] is the faith, the truth, and the liturgy and all this which the Church always kept, as it was in the fourth century during the Arian crisis.”

The anomalous and slowly evolving SSPX situation is complicated. When things are really complicated in the Church, we are charity bound to cut people some slack and interpret restrictive laws as strictly as possible so as to give people maximum latitude.

I am convinced that the Enemy knows that he cannot win if we succeed in renewing the life of the Church through a recovery of our traditional liturgical rites. Therefore, the Devil is going to fuel feuds, create strife and prompt the hardening of hearts.

Moreover, Old Scratch and demons are the ultimate lawyers. If they can keep us quibbling and mired in the details, we are rendered ineffective.

[ebb tide]

Ping

[ebb tide]

Moreover, Old Scratch and demons are the ultimate lawyers. If they can keep us quibbling and mired in the details, we are rendered ineffective.

Please take note, Murph, before you next falsely accuse your fellow Catholics of being schismatic.

[MurphsLaw]

You cannot Reject AND then accept Pope Francis in the same breath.
You cannot reject Vat 2 and think you are not in Schism:

Cardinal Burke: SSPX in Schism

[Campion]

SSPX doesn't "reject" +Francis, if by that you mean refuse to consider him the lawful Pope of Rome. They aren't sedevacantists, IOW.

What does "reject Vatican II" mean? They think it was a lawfully called ecumenical council. They also think it made some mistakes, specifically its tendency toward indifferentism and its teaching on religious liberty.

(The liturgical "reform" came years after Vatican II, and arguably departs considerably from what the council recommended. Rejecting that is not "rejecting Vatican II," no matter what +Francis and Abp Roche may claim. Their claim is an innovation; Pope St Paul VI -- who ought to know about such things -- granted indults to say the Old Mass. Pope St JP2 granted more of them. Benedict, who was actually at the council as a peritus, made the indult universal.)

But "schism" has a specific meaning: "refusal of communion to the Roman pontiff or those in communion with him". SSPX has never done either of those things.

NB: I am not in any way affiliated with SSPX, and my regular parish is a (very traditional) Novus Ordo parish.

[MurphsLaw]

We'll have to, very respectfully, disagree on this.
I, as you, not affiliated- or an Ex- , though I have read much from those who are.

That said, I think this Pope can err when he put his shoes on in the morning.
I find little he says or does that inspires me.
But I have my complete trust in God to guide the Church as he has promised-
and that requires an obedience to the Papal Good and the Bad.
(Our Lady of Sorrows emphasizes that for us.)
God has his reasons - and we are to follow.
So no, I cannot cut and run.

I agree with that from the very beginning, that the sect was born out of a rejection of Papal authority - in a "Lutheresque" manner.
They sect was NEVER sent - or commissioned- by the Church...

They can say what they want- but they have always just toyed with a forgiving nature of the Church - and danced between the lines in its application of things formal and material, canonical and non-canonical.
They absolutely do reject the Ecumenical nature of Vat2- but if you want to say they like a lot of what Vat2 called for- I would concede that then.

So, in your opinion then-
if they were indeed under the jurisdiction of the Pope- and Pope Francis decreed each SSPX Chapel would have to celebrate at least one N.O. Mass per Sunday- Do you think the sect would comply? or simply refuse, in disobedience to the Pope?

(This is completely hypothetical- though I'm curious to your opinion...
As even with aura of the Pope's disappointing TC hanging in the air- the Pope would never suggest anything so "currently" consistent as that- of the SSPX- as to cause them any distress...
because he needs to use the SSPX to create further division within the Church,
and to do what he can to reduce traditionalism- using the SSPX as an all too willing co-conspirator.)

[ebb tide]

Burke’s a lightweight compared to Bishop Schneider, Bishop Strickland, Archbishop Vigano and Bishop Gracida.

Where’s the formal correction of Bergoglio for the heresies in Amoris Latitiae that Burke, and three other cardinals, had promised if Bergolio did not respond to the four cardinals’ dubia that was presented 2188 days ago? That’s almost 6 years ago for those who live in Rio Linda, Murph.

[ebb tide]

But I have my complete trust in God to guide the Church as he has promised- and that requires an obedience to the Papal Good and the Bad.

Thanks for being the perfect example of being a papalator: one who obeys and believes every thing the present present pope (heretic or not) says, commands, or changes, in contradiction to his holy predecessors.

Numerous saints, including St. Augustine and St. Thomas, have taught that an unjust law is no law at all and is not to be obeyed. I feel sorry for those who cannot "discern" an unjust law from a just law.

[ebb tide]

So, in your opinion then- if they were indeed under the jurisdiction of the Pope- and Pope Francis decreed each SSPX Chapel would have to celebrate at least one N.O. Mass per Sunday- Do you think the sect would comply? or simply refuse, in disobedience to the Pope?

That's essentially what Bergoglio's U.S. hatchetman, Cupcake Cupich, demanded of the good priests of The Institute of Christ the King in Chicago. They would not obey his unjust law and as a result were kicked out of Cupcake's Archdiocese.

Is ICK a "sect" also, Murph? Is FSSP a sect? They're not celebrating the Bugnini Mess, either?

[ebb tide]

Welcome to Frankenchurch!

Pope in Kazakhstan: “Man is the way for all the religions.”

[ebb tide]

I just checked you link, Murph.

Of course it’s to Church Militant, a site dominated by an ex-homo and Nazi Niles, both of whom will sue anyone dares dares to challenge their lies.

Up until Francis, they always said it was a sin to critique a pope and refused to do so. Low and behold, shortly after Bergoglio’s usurption of the Chair, they changed their “policy”. Like Bergoglio and Barron, CM spins faster than a weather vane in a hurricane.

[MurphsLaw]

CM hates Bishop Barron too... so your kinda birds of a feather...
But Voris and co. do good work just the same... Look for the good...

I wonder,...
What if we could just get rid of this Pope?
Better yet... what if we could just abolish the office?
No more Popes ever...
Do away with the Papacy altogether??

Now where have we heard that before?

[ebb tide]

What if we could just get rid of this Pope?

What if we prayed for the conversion of Jorge Bergoglio instead, Murph?

What if we prayed for the intercession of Popes Sts. Pius V and Pius X to turn the poor man's soul to God and not Man?

What if we prayed for the conversion of Barron, Cupich, McElroy, Gregory, Tobin et al? All promoted by Jorge the Humble.

[ebb tide]

.. Look for the good...

We need not look for the good in those with nefarious motives.

Lucifer can quote Scripture better than Bergoglio, Voris or Barron combined and twist it like the snake he is.

Don't bite the apple like Eve did.

[MurphsLaw]

What if we prayed for the conversion of Jorge Bergoglio instead, Murph?

What?
You knucklehead !
We pray for the Pope EVERY SUNDAY MASS - don't you...?

Although our Protestant brethren might take issue with it.. we ask the "Lord, Hear our Prayer" after every Prayer of the Faithful intention /intercession we ask during Mass. Also then, we pray for Pope again in the Eucharistic Prayer- along with bishops, clergy etc. We pary for ALOT in the Mass !!!

So listen, you should hear a prayer something like -

"For Pope Francis... that our Heavenly Father may gift him with deep wisdom and guide him as he calls the Church into ..."

I would assume ALL Catholics are praying for the Pope regularly as well...
so get with it already !

[ebb tide]

So you admit Bergoglio needs conversion back to the Catholic faith. Pray for Barron’s conversion, also.

[MurphsLaw]

So you admit Bergoglio needs conversion back to the Catholic faith. Pray for Barron’s conversion, also.

you goofball !!!

WE ALL NEED constant conversion... EVERYDAY !!!

C'mon man- don't tell me you're a Once, for all conversion kinda person!

If you're not converting to Christ everyday ---
You are lost... we all have, and continue to sin... Everyday (Even you.)

Hint: Its a process- a race- that we must run and finish-
you must keep the Faith through this perseverance!!!
Though I think, your faith is pretty weak by what you write.. being scared of "heretics" and all... just sayin".

[ebb tide]

Your lies and ad hominems are tiresome. Go back to Boobie and his boy-toys:

Bishop Robert Barron’s Disturbing Musclemen Fetish is a Scandal by Itself

Jared Zimmerer Executive Director of Word on Fire Ministry

Fr Steven Grunow, CEO of Word on Fire Catholic Ministry

P.S. "Nighty-nite, baby" Tobin also has a musclemen fetish.

Cardinal Tobin: Catechism language 'very unfortunate' on homosexuality

Cardinal’s Welcome to LGBT Catholics “Felt Like a Miracle”

As Church Shifts, a Cardinal Welcomes Gays; They Embrace a ‘Miracle’

Now let's look at the facts, Muprh:

Bergoglio has passed over Catholic orthodox bishops like Cordileone, Paprocki and Strickland in his promotions. Instead he has promoted homo-friendly, abortion-friendly, heretics such as Cupich, Gregory, Joey Tobin and his boy-toy, McElroy (over Cordileone). And guess what, your Boobie Barron was just promoted!

You can tell a man by the company he keeps, right?

Now go again and call me a "knucklehead", a "goofball" or a "schismatic" or as Wpin calls me a "cretin". But I'm not the one wearing rose-colored glasses while igonoring the pink elephant in Frankenchurch.

[ebb tide]

Murph,

I never left the Catholic faith. I'm in a state of grace and need no “converision”. I go to Confession every two weeks.

Now tell me this:

Does Bergoglio hold the same faith when he:

Condones adultery (Amoris Laetita).

Worships Pachamama

Questions Humanae Vitae.

Denies the existence of Hell and states unsaved souls are “extinguished”.

States all are welcome to the Supper of the Lamb, Catholic or not, in a state of grace or not.

States those who are too embarrassed by their sins, need not verbally confess them to a priest.

Claims Jesus Christ was not divine until His resurrection.

Claims he's not the one to judge his homosexual priests, yet is swift in constantly lambasting traditional Catholics and actively attacking them.

Claims that behind closed doors, the Holy Trinity argues among themselves. (I find this one of his most heretical and sacrilegious statements, one of many).

States the Blessed Mother committed the sin of despair during her Son's Passion.

Condones the sacrilege of the Blessed Sacrament by allowing pro-aborts to receive Holy Communion.

Claiming, twice now, that God wills the pluralism of religions.

You really need to pray for this man, Murph; as well as those he has promoted, including Boobie.

[MurphsLaw]

NO. ALL WRONG.

METANOIA, son... Metanoia.

I'm not talking about conversion from one faith belief to another.
Nooooo...
It's NEVER one and done..
Some can believe that if they want to...
But that's EXACTLY why we go to Confession...
To maintain the conversion of our Baptism- and go deeper...

You'll understand better if you check this one link I found.

Five Key Truths about Ongoing Conversion

AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHO THE POPE IS!!!!