Posted on 06/26/2020 1:38:34 PM PDT by JAG 5000
“Sorry but it’s written in the Bible that God created the good and the evil and that he did it for his own glory. So we can believe or assert anything we’d like but if the discussion is about God and good and evil then my quote is the final word...”___Stockpirate
__________
Sure. You can build your theological
system on one Bible verse and maybe
add a few more. This is not new.
There is nothing that you can think,
say, or do, that will eliminate from
the Bible the clear teaching that Sin
originated with the Free Will of mankind.
That God made man perfect. That God gave
man a Free Will. That man used his Free
Will to sin.
Sorry. But your quote is not the final word.
That’s evident from the fact that I am writing
this post. But MORE important than that, is the
fact that in the coming millenniums there will
be untold hundreds, maybe thousands, that will
write aritcles and books on “The Problem Of Evil”
and how to reconcile it with the God of the Bible.
So? So your quote is NOT the “final word” on this
subject.
______
Anyway, thank you for your comments.
``
“Theists... they say that atheists
see ourselves as God, but it’s
Theists who claim to speak for
him.”___A Perfect Lady
______
They are correct. Atheists DO see themselves
as their own god. How so? Well because on
your lights, there is no higher authority
that YOU. Its either YOU or some other
human being{s}. You don’t see cats and dogs
as a highest authority. You see Yourself as
the Highest Authority
. So? So, de facto, YOU are your own god.
YOU decide everything for you.
God decides nothing for you.
So? So for all practical purposes,
YOU are your own god.
___________
Regarding Theists who speak for God.
The knowledgeable ones do NOT.
They say “God says the following if I correctly
understand what this Bible passage is saying.”
Saying THAT is not speaking for God.
God has spoken in the Bible.
We Theists have to “get it right” when
we tell you what God has said in the
Bible.
Of course, YOU can read it for yourself
and decide for yourself what God has said
in the Bible. Skip the “middle man” and
get yourself a copy of the NIV -— The
New International Version -— which is
the best English translation in existence
-— and start reading it.
Start in John’s gospel. You’ll love it.
Go for it.
If you’ve already done that, then “do it again”
-—this time it might stick, Perfect Lady. :)
``
“A dream of mad man moon.”__Samurai Jack
_______
Heh heh, now THAT is a cool saying. Mad Man Moon { MMM }
“If God allowed free determination instead of predetermination then God is responsible because he made the choice to allow for free choice. Ultimately it comes down to the choice God made and therefore is responsible for the choices he made.”___Zaxtres
___________
However you want to put it, the Bible says
we will be held accountable for our Free Will
choices.
HENRY: Your Honor, its true that I robbed
the bank and killed a couple of tellers,
but Your Honor Zaxtres said that God was
the one that is responsible, and not me.
THE JUDGE: Oh thanks for explaining Henry.
I understand. Case dismissed.
However you want to put it, the Bible says
we will be held accountable for our Free Will
choices.-——Jag 5000
And the buck stops where?
HENRY: I was the driver. I did not know they were going to kill a man robbing the bank.
Why is the getaway driver responsible for killing the man? He made the choice to only drive the car not kill the man. Who is responsible then? In the eyes of the law and GOD both are equally responsible for the heinous act. Therefore if GOD were the getaway driver, he is as much responsible for the choices made using the Free Will GOD chose to give us. The choice is ultimately in GOD’s hands but we make the final choice. Therefore GOD is the root beginning of the FREE WILL choice there fore he is ultimately responsible in the end. Or is it only when there is good that it’s GOD’s Will and when there is bad it is man’s will. Can’t have it both ways.
I am not interested in John’s explanations any more than I am in yours, because all theists are the same in that they try to explain the discrepancies between the world as it is, and the world as it would be if it were really made by a benevolent, omnipotent, perfect God. And what they do (and what you do) is simply say what makes sense to YOU. Because you figure that if it makes sense to YOU, it’s probably right. You create God in your own image, and the rational you posit for God’s actions are actually what you figure your reasons would be, in his place. All theists seem to secretly believe that God is very much like them.
“I am not interested in John’s explanations any more than I am in yours, because all theists are the same in that they try to explain the discrepancies between the world as it is, and the world as it would be if it were really made by a benevolent, omnipotent, perfect God. And what they do (and what you do) is simply say what makes sense to YOU. Because you figure that if it makes sense to YOU, it’s probably right. You create God in your own image, and the rational you posit for God’s actions are actually what you figure your reasons would be, in his place. All theists seem to secretly believe that God is very much like them.”___Perfect Lady
_____________
* Aww, come on now.
* You must be interested otherwise you wouldn’t be
reading this thread.
* You have to have Faith.
* Christianity is a Faith.
* Science, Rationalsim, and Empiricism
is NOT gonna “be there for you” when you
are laying on your Death Bed dying.
* If you die a Natural Death and live to
be say 90, and if you are now age 60,
you have only 360 months left to live.
* When you are laying on your Death Bed
and your Doctor shakes his head and
walks away — at that time you
will need a Friend and a Savior , , , because
Science, Rationalism, and Empiricism
can not save you and give you Eternal Life
in your great time of need.
* Give it some serious thought.
* Its never to late to turn to the Lord Jesus.
Best.
JAG 5000
“However you want to put it, the Bible says
we will be held accountable for our Free Will
choices.-——Jag 5000
And the buck stops where?
HENRY: I was the driver. I did not know they were going to kill a man robbing the bank.
Why is the getaway driver responsible for killing the man? He made the choice to only drive the car not kill the man. Who is responsible then? In the eyes of the law and GOD both are equally responsible for the heinous act. Therefore if GOD were the getaway driver, he is as much responsible for the choices made using the Free Will GOD chose to give us. The choice is ultimately in GOD’s hands but we make the final choice. Therefore GOD is the root beginning of the FREE WILL choice there fore he is ultimately responsible in the end. Or is it only when there is good that it’s GOD’s Will and when there is bad it is man’s will. Can’t have it both ways.”___Zaxtres
__________
* The entire Bible is written on the assumption
that God gave man Free Will.
* And that God holds all men personally and
directly responsible for their Free Will choices.
* There is no possible way to ESCAPE from this.
* You would have to start tearing whole pages out of
your Bible in order to hold that God is responsible
for man’s Free Will decisions and choices.
* Joshua told told the people to “choose you this
day whom you will serve.”
*John 3:16 presents you with a clear Free Will CHOICE between
{1} perish
and
{2} Eternal Life
* “Behold I stand at the door and knock” presents
all people with a Free Will CHOICE
{1} Open the door
or
{2} Refuse to open the door.
* There is nothing in your post up-there that
in any way demonstrates that God is responsible
for man’s Free Will choices.
* Why is it that human beings are so zealous to
get rid of Free Will?
* I think its because many humans DO NOT LIKE
the concept of FREE WILL because it puts the
BLAME SQUARE ON THEM and takes it off of God.
* I do know this: That the Internet is packed
and crammed with people that love to argue
AGAINST Free Will -— this is very telling.
* Many humans will blame anybody they can EXCEPT
themselves for Sin and Evil.
” Adam blamed Eve “This woman that YOU gave me”
* “I’m innocent” is what most convicts tell you.
* They can have a “rap sheet” as long as a
bath towel, but they will tell you “It was
not my fault” that I committed those crimes.
Best.
JAG 5000
```
Like everything in scripture, nothing is dismiss. I would suggest you're misreading it.
As for "free will", just an interspective question, did you choose to be saved? Did you, on your own accord, say you were going to live a righteous life and follow Christ?
Just think about it. The Jews, after all, are the CHOOSEN people.
John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
“Ahh, but you have already read them and dismissed them — so I will not waste my time listing then for you.
Like everything in scripture, nothing is dismiss. I would suggest you’re misreading it.
As for “free will”, just an interspective question, did you choose to be saved? Did you, on your own accord, say you were going to live a righteous life and follow Christ?
Just think about it. The Jews, after all, are the CHOOSEN people.
John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.___HarleyD
_______
* Believe it or not , I understand ALL that up there.
* I have on my desk The Reformed Doctrine Of Predestination by
Dr. Loraine Boettner.
I have read it dozens of times over the decades.
* I am very familiar with Calvinistic books and doctrines.
* God’s absolute Sovereignty AND man’s Free Will are
BOTH taught in Holy Scripture.
* The correct position is to affirm BOTH and NOT
to select one, to the exclusion of the other.
* “Did I choose to be saved?”
Answer is both Yes & No.
No if you mean did I originate my salvation process
totally apart from God.
Yes if you mean did I use my Free Will to choose
to accept the Lord Jesus as my personal Savior.
* The BIG problem with both
{1} Calvinism
and
{2} Arminianism
is that they BOTH deny
a vital Biblical doctrine.
* By the time some Calvinists get through
with the Biblical doctrine of Free Will
-— it no longer exists.
* By the time some Arminians get through
with the Sovereignty Of God -— it no longer
exists.
* BOTH these are
true:
{1} God’s Soveregnty.
{2} Man’s Free Will
Best.
JAG
Scot me up Beamy.
```
Yeah... yeah... yeah... pass the blame and the buck. You never addressed the comment I made back. Funny you recite the Bible as if the Bible was God’s own words. Yet when doing a history of the Bible we see that GOD never wrote the Bible, a collection of men wrote it. On top of all of that, it was man who decided what the Bible contains, not God.
So come at me all you want, but until you have God’s words from God himself, the Bible is nothing more than a history book like an author writing about George Washington in the year 2020. Neither was there to witness first hand the accounts of the deeds.
Come at me with first hand accounts not drivel from a history book.
Never said I was against Free Will. I originally talked about predetermination. That is something totally different than free will. If something is predetermined then the outcome from all the Free Will choices will be the same. And that is where I lose you because you conflate Free will - the choice - with predetermination - the outcome. So you will continue to argue we all have a choice but according to the Bible there is only two outcomes (three really). You either go to Heaven or you go to Hell. The third is purgatory in some circles. This is predetermination. All the choices that you freely make make, Free Will, then leads you to an outcome that has been predetermined.
I won’t argue about Free Will because Free Will and predetermination are not one in the same. You can if you want but you might be better served beating an old rug because you will get more out of it.
On the other hand, election, predestined, chosen are all over the scriptures. I would suggest you will not be able to understand the Gospel of John or Romans without understanding these doctrine. At least I never could.
Do you think Paul had a choice? It certainly wasn't his "free will" that pushed him over on the Damascus Road. Paul states that God choose him from his mother's womb:
Gal 1:15-16 But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,
Same is true about Jeremiah where God states:
“Now the word of the Lord came to me saying, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.” Jer 1:4-5
Doesn't sound like Jeremiah had a free choice in the matter. I could go on and on. But the greatest evidence is within each of us. And, give what you have written, it shows up in your testimony as well when you stated: No if you mean did I originate my salvation process totally apart from God.. If you didn't originate your salvation then God must have. Just like this testimony, I have NEVER heard a personal testimony yet that didn't say..."I was going this way BUT God..." It is this one simple phrase in our testimony that illustrates the proof that we are chosen by God. God opened our eyes and ears to see and hear the gospel call. Just like Paul on the Damascus Road.
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
So what you are saying is that if anyone goes to Hell it was God who chose that for them, and there was nothing they could do about it.
...
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
“No where in scripture is “free will” mentioned nor is the term used unless you point to one occurrence of a “free will offering” in Leviticus. There is man’s will and there is God’s will. There isn’t a “free will”. Man’s will is at strife with God’s will. If one thinks otherwise then, if they are truly a Christian and truly have a “free will”, it should be a simple matter of living a sinless life because one can choose to do good. Our sinfulness illustrates that our will are constantly battling God’s will.
On the other hand, election, predestined, chosen are all over the scriptures. I would suggest you will not be able to understand the Gospel of John or Romans without understanding these doctrine. At least I never could.
Do you think Paul had a choice? It certainly wasn’t his “free will” that pushed him over on the Damascus Road. Paul states that God choose him from his mother’s womb:
Gal 1:15-16 But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,
Same is true about Jeremiah where God states:
“Now the word of the Lord came to me saying, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.” Jer 1:4-5
Doesn’t sound like Jeremiah had a free choice in the matter. I could go on and on. But the greatest evidence is within each of us. And, give what you have written, it shows up in your testimony as well when you stated: No if you mean did I originate my salvation process totally apart from God.. If you didn’t originate your salvation then God must have. Just like this testimony, I have NEVER heard a personal testimony yet that didn’t say...”I was going this way BUT God...” It is this one simple phrase in our testimony that illustrates the proof that we are chosen by God. God opened our eyes and ears to see and hear the gospel call. Just like Paul on the Damascus Road.
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,:___HarleyD
___________
HarleyD,
* Thank you for a well written post.
* You put some thought and some time into writing that up.
* This debate has been going on for some
2000 years and is nowhere near being settled.
* We can both make our points.
* Perhaps our points will be a blessing to some human being somewhere. I hope so.
* Here is a point for you: Joshua told the
people “choose you this day whom you will serve.”
That’s Free Will
* John 3:16 presents all people with a Free Will choice:
{1} Choose to perish
or
{2} Choose Eternal Life
Again Free Will.
* “Behold I satand at the door and knock”___The Lord Jesus
This again is Free Will.
This presents you with a choice:
{1} Choose to open the door
or
{2} Choose to refuse to open the door.
Free Will.
* Not gonna ever be able to escape from Free Will.
Best To You HarleyD.
JAG
Yeah... yeah... yeah... pass the blame and the buck. You never addressed the comment I made back. Funny you recite the Bible as if the Bible was God’s own words. Yet when doing a history of the Bible we see that GOD never wrote the Bible, a collection of men wrote it. On top of all of that, it was man who decided what the Bible contains, not God.
So come at me all you want, but until you have God’s words from God himself, the Bible is nothing more than a history book like an author writing about George Washington in the year 2020. Neither was there to witness first hand the accounts of the deeds.
Come at me with first hand accounts not drivel from a history book.
Never said I was against Free Will. I originally talked about predetermination. That is something totally different than free will. If something is predetermined then the outcome from all the Free Will choices will be the same. And that is where I lose you because you conflate Free will - the choice - with predetermination - the outcome. So you will continue to argue we all have a choice but according to the Bible there is only two outcomes (three really). You either go to Heaven or you go to Hell. The third is purgatory in some circles. This is predetermination. All the choices that you freely make make, Free Will, then leads you to an outcome that has been predetermined.
I won’t argue about Free Will because Free Will and predetermination are not one in the same. You can if you want but you might be better served beating an old rug because you will get more out of it.”___Zaxtres
__________
Zaxtres,
* Thank you for your comments.
* The Bible IS God’s words.
* 2 timothy 3:16-17 says that all Scripture is
God-breathed and is therefore useful for teaching
and preaching and for many other good purposes.
{1} the Holy Scriptures
{2} can make you wise for salvation
{3} which is in Christ Jesus our Lord
{4} all Scripture is useful for:
{5} teaching
{6} rebuking
{7} correcting
{8} training in righteousness
{9} so that the man of God
{10} may be equipped for every god work
* Relax. Nobody is “coming at you.”
* Purgatory is nonsesne. Its a man made doctrine.
There is not a shred of Biblical evidence to
support the notion of Purgatory.
* Yes, I am aware that you did NOT say there was
any Biblical evidence for Purgatory.
* This debate about Free Will has been going on
for some 2000 years and is nowhere near being
settled.
* This debate is not going to be settled here in this thread.
* We can both make our points.
* Perhaps our points will be a blessing to some human being somewhere. I hope so.
* You say you will not argue about Free Will.
* Okay.
* Nonetheless, here is a point for you: Joshua told the
people “choose you this day whom you will serve.”
That’s Free Will
* John 3:16 presents all people with a Free Will choice:
{1} Choose to perish
or
{2} Choose Eternal Life
Again Free Will.
* “Behold I stand at the door and knock”___The Lord Jesus
This again is Free Will.
This presents you with a choice:
{1} Choose to open the door
or
{2} Choose to refuse to open the door.
* Whatever you mean by your word “predetermined” it will
NOT ever , , no NEVER eliminate Free Will.
* Free Will is here to stay.
* Not gonna ever be able to escape from Free Will.
Best To You Zaxtres
JAG
“God doesn’t owe us a single thing. We are all deserving of hell. We don’t have any reason to complain to God if He threw the lot of us there. In our fallen state though we know God, we deliberately do not honor Him as God. (Romans 1) Just because God decides to make Himself known to some only makes Him merciful to some (justice to others) because we all deserve hell.
Romans 9:14-16 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
...
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
That is what Romans 9 is all about. If we understood the holiness of our wonderful God and our wretched sinfulness, we would be like the tax collector pleading with God to be merciful to us as sinners. Instead, God gives us His Son and we killed Him. And then we say it’s not fair for God to thrown some in Hell?”___HarleyD
_____________
HarleyD,
* Magnificent post.
* I am with you 100% in the spirit of what you wrote.
* God’s Grace and Mercy is wonderful.
* We all deserve God’s Justice.
* Instead of Justice, I beg God for His Mercy and His Grace.
* We have Mercy and Grace in the Lord Jesus.
JAG
The word "if" is used, signifying a choice that had to be made. God knowing the hearts of all men beforehand, knew Pharaoh's heart, and He knew forcing Pharaoh to make a decision would harden Pharaoh's heart. Thus it was God's command to let the people go, that hardened Pharaoh's heart. In each case where Pharaoh was given two alternatives, there was no judgement until after Pharaoh made a choice.
The foreknowledge of God is not to be mistaken for no choice. Even though God knows beforehand what the choice will be; else, why would He say, "Choose ye this day whom you will serve. God brings judgement after actions; indeed, why should he wait, or why offer choices at all if no decisions are to be made by those given a choice of two different fates?
The children God brought in. They didn't have a choice.
From the entire text God loves the world but man will not come to Him because it will expose his sinfulness. Just like Adam hiding in the garden after he transgressed God's command. Keep these two things in mind, 1) God really, really loves us and wants to walk among us, and 2) men really hate God and want nothing to do with Him because He will show just how corrupt we are. That is the nature of God and man, and is what John 3:16-21 tells us. We like to think of the first while ignoring the second simply because we don't want to admit our sinfulness. In order for God to be partakers of our lives, God has to cleanse us and change our hearts to desire to have fellowship with Him. That is how wonderful this truth is.
A companion to John 3:16-21 is Ephesians 2:
If one don't believe me, just stand out on a street corner and tell people they need to repent and come to Christ to be saved. See how many will make a "free choice". Stats says they have a 50/50 chance of selecting the right path. I seriously doubt one will convert that many people.
Foreknowledge (or foreknown) isn't that God looks down some tunnel to see what people will do as many seem to believe. Rather foreknowledge is God deliberately purposes what He wants by His sovereign will and predestines that will. (He knows what He wants to do ahead of time (foreknown) and then He decrees it so (predestined).)
Pharaoh is a good example. God knew very well that Pharaoh wouldn't "chose" to let the people go until enough pressure had been put upon him. Yet God constantly asks him to. It is a puzzlement but this is what the scriptures teaches and we cannot understand the mind of God. Only that He is just and fair in all that He does. We just take the things that are revealed to us and rightfully understand the truth so we can understand God and His word.
Deuteronomy 29:29 “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law.
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