VIGANÒ WRITES ON THE VATICAN II. WE ARE AT THE REDDE RATIONEM.

Stilum Curiae ^ | June 9, 2020 | Marco Tosatti

[ebb tide]

Worthwhile article to read regarding the sacred VCII, the New Pentecost, whose "spirit" keeps on giving and givng and giving.

[ebb tide]

Ping

[STJPII]

You beat me to it. I was going to post this. Fascinating and important piece. Vigano unapologetically speaks truth to power. He is the Catherine of Sienna of our day. Skojec calls him a profit? Maybe

[Albion Wilde]

Bump

[ScholarWarrior]

Deus locutus.

[edwinland]

Can I ask you a technical question.

Is Vigano saying “only” that the council was undermined and then misused to create our current mess. But otherwise the council was valid magisterium and maybe even good and right.

Or is he saying that the council was flawed or invalid in itself?

I ask because I’m arguing with a priest relative over whether there are many people who oppose the council itself, and not just its misapplication and bad fruits.

[ebb tide]

I’m in no position to speak for the good Archbishop Vigano.

But my personal opinion, is that the answer to your second question is a definite, “Yes”.

And you can tell your priest relative, that I have many Catholic relatives, friends and coworkers who think the same.

[MurphsLaw]

Vigano is a treasure for sure..... And I get all the liturgical abuses the council gets blamed for....big mistakes were made... But let's not be like the revisionists and paint a rosy , squeaky clean picture of the pre-1960s Church?..there were looming problems.... Not the least is the fact that the roots of the clergy sexual abuse problem began BEFORE V2, with many deviant priests being ordained in the '50s and early '60s, again without the influence of the "spirit of the Council" it only got worse as we know. And the Council itself was convened with ALL participants ordained or baptized much earlier in the modernizing 20th century....

The post-war Church was dying out in Europe.... And is on its death bed now.... The Council's needs were comprehensive in the years preceding the sexual and social revolutions of the 60s and 70s that would change the world forever, but in the end the church is administered by men given the trust from the laity. That is the failing. And lest we forget..... The pre Vat2 church would not allow for the laity to have much of a voice in Church or Vatican affairs... We were secondary, and we did not question....even if you disagreed, you did not speak against the Church... Can you imagine not having a voice in the Church today?

[nanetteclaret]

The answer will be found in “Pascendi Dominici Gregis,” promulgated by St. Pius X in 1907. It condemns Modernism as a Heresy. Then get a good book or two which explains Modernism and you will have your answer. Quick summary: Modernism believes that there is no Truth. “That may be true for you, but it isn’t for me” thinking. The Catholic faith before Vatican II insists that it was True because God revealed it and He can neither deceive nor be deceived. Vatican II claimed that Truth wasn’t Absolute, and it could therefore change, which of course is wrong. That’s my understanding of it.

Sorry for butting in, but I researched this pretty thoroughly a few years ago.

[edwinland]

Thanks

[edwinland]

Yes, that is helpful to know. My immediate question is Vigano. Does he

1. openly espouse the view you describe
2. probably espouse it but dances around it in public writings
3. in his writings accept the validity of Vatican II but reject its misapplication (like benedict)

[ebb tide]

Just as I honestly and serenely obeyed questionable orders sixty years ago, believing that they represented the loving voice of the Church, so today with equal serenity and honesty I recognize that I have been deceived. Being coherent today by persevering in error would represent a wretched choice and would make me an accomplice in this fraud. Claiming a clarity of judgment from the beginning would not be honest: we all knew that the Council would be more or less a revolution, but we could not have imagined that it would prove to be so devastating, even for the work of those who should have prevented it.

Does the statement above not convince you that your #1 proposition is the correct answer?

And by the way, Cardinal Ottavani and Archbishop LeFebvre did know better and did speak out and they were ignored.

[ebb tide]

The Council's needs were comprehensive in the years preceding the sexual and social revolutions of the 60s and 70s that would change the world forever, but in the end the church is administered by men given the trust from the laity.

Do you know John XXIII's reason for calling for VCII?

His speech to the cardinals on January 25, 1959, mentioned two specific goals of the council: “the enlightenment, edification, and joy of the entire Christian people,” and “a renewed cordial invitation to the faithful of the separated Churches to participate with us in this feast of grace and brotherhood [sic], for which so many souls long in all parts of the world.”

The birth seed of "ecumania", "intereligous dialogue", "we adore the "god" of the muslims, etc.

[edwinland]

Maybe I’m easily confused but that looks to me more like 2 — a rejection of the council itself.

[ebb tide]

1. openly espouse the view you describe
2. probably espouse it but dances around it in public writings

#2? Really? You think he's dancing around the elephant in the room?

He's come right out and has called the council a "fraud". Looks like #1 to me. What more do you need?

[blackpacific]

Vigano just hit it out of the park, again. What a beautiful act of a true shepherd. He cut through the fog. He basically said that the people who did this to us need to be taken out by the wood shed, and if they don’t repent they need to be expelled.

[Marchmain]

Vigano, like SSPX, rejects the Council. This is one of his many extreme views.

[ScholarWarrior]

The church was systematically destroyed by evil.

[ebb tide]

Vigano, like SSPX, rejects the Council. This is one of his many extreme views.

Again, only your opinion.

[piusv]

Now if he would put his words into action.