Real Christians and America

I’ve read the replies on other threads about the subject of who or what a “real” Christian is, and there are some issues I believe have presented themselves as a result of these discussions that have a great deal to do with what is happening in America today.

The main thing I’ve noticed is that there doesn’t seem to be a generic Christian. Not only do people who call themselves Christians not believe those who think differently than them on the subject are actually Christians, they also think those people are going to go to hell, forever, because of the difference between their beliefs.

This is extraordinary, because with a straight face, these same people also claim that America is a “Christian” nation. Their argument for this, however, is actually a LIBERAL argument. Because liberals believe that people who believe that Jesus Christ is their savior are Christians - period. And so they lump ALL forms of this belief together as one. Then actual Christians reference this LIBERAL description of themselves to call America a “Christian” nation.

But why do they need to hide behind a liberal definition of their relationship with God in order to support their country? Isn’t that a bit bizarre? Worse, isn’t it hypocritical and cowardly? Because the naked truth is that these same, actual Christians do NOT, in fact, define “Christians” in this way FOR THEMSELVES. These same actual Christians ONLY define “real” Christians as people who believe EXACTLY as they do about Jesus Christ. To my bemusement (and dismay), this is not hard to prove. In fact the opposite is true - it’s hard to escape.

The first big schism, of course, is between Catholics and Protestants. Now get this: they both believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that He came to save the world, that He is the ONLY way to be saved, that He was crucified and died for our sins, and that He rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. And they also believe that dedicating their lives and their beliefs to these specific issues is not only their religious duty, but the very purpose of their human life.

But BOTH Catholics AND Protestants ALSO believe that the other is going to hell! And for what? For not believing in FURTHER details about Jesus EXACTLY as they do. Because what I described - ALL OF IT - is NOT enough to ANY of them. Living a life based on all of that - is not enough. Praying to God, dedicating one’s life, and the entirety of one’s efforts and most solemn acts to all of that - is not enough.

Not enough - meaning that the other party is going to hell and suffering forever and ever and ever, just as badly as the worst criminal, as Hitler or Stalin.

But it gets worse, because Protestantism is broken into innumerable sects which also believe that about EACH OTHER - not just about Catholics.

So there’s NO true common ground among so-called “Christians” - NONE. Because it’s only lip service when you believe the other person is actually going to writhe and scream in unbearable torment for the rest of eternity because they don’t agree with you. That’s called a “litmus test.”

And therefore the use of that word is only really honest when used by NON-Christians, because THEY all mean the same thing. But to the contrary, Catholics ONLY mean Catholics are Christians, Baptists ONLY mean Baptists are Christians, Lutherans ONLY mean Lutherans are Christians, Anglicans ONLY mean Anglicans are Christians, Calvinists ONLY mean Calvinists are Christians, Presbyterians ONLY mean Presbyterians are Christians, Methodists ONLY mean Methodists are Christians, Pentecostals ONLY mean Pentecostals are Christians, Mormons ONLY mean Mormons are Christians, etc., etc., etc.

No common ground. In fact, angry denouncement of each other as NON-Christian, and cries of heresy and eternal damnation.

Here’s a perfect example - a Catholic FReeper was recently denouncing Martin Luther King as a non-Christian because of all of his various failings in deeds and belief. In addition to sleeping around on his wife, and hanging around with communists, she pointed out several supposed beliefs MLK had about Christ that are non-traditional and even contrary to common generally-accepted teachings. To her accusations, I laughed out loud! Why? Because SHE’S CATHOLIC. Which means that even if MLK was a perfect Baptist, never cheated on his wife, and was sterling in every possible way, politically, morally and religiously - she would STILL believe that he was going to hell! Why? Because that’s what Catholics believe about non-Catholics. So it doesn’t matter what MLK did or didn’t do as far as his Christian legitimacy is concerned if he’s not a Catholic, so why even bother bringing his failings up when, according to Catholicism, he still would never be a “real” Christian? Yet this is just an example, because on the flip side, ALL Protestant FReepers believe SHE is going to hell for being a Catholic, no matter how good a life she lives. And, of course, both Catholics AND Protestants believe that Mormons are ALL going to hell, no matter what kind of lives they lead, even if they are literally spiritually heroic. Nope - hell.

Remember, I’m not even talking about Buddhists or Hindus or Taoists or New Agers or Wiccans or Muslims. I’m talking ONLY about so-called Christians here. Because why go further? If a person can honestly and sincerely dedicate their entire life to living the belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that He came to save the world, that He is the ONLY way to be saved, that He was crucified and died for our sins, and that He rose from the dead and ascended into heaven, and that dedicating their lives and their beliefs to these specific issues is not only their religious duty, but the very purpose of their human life - AND STILL GO TO HELL FOR THOSE BELIEFS NOT BEING THE “CORRECT” CHRISTIANITY, then why even bother talking about the legitimacy, in America, of any other openly NON-Christian religion?

And in the reverse, why should anyone AVOID looking into a non-Christian religion, if it’s so hard to even be accepted as a BASIC Christian even by believing in Jesus Christ to the extent described above? Because that’s what’s happening, as you well know. Millions are looking elsewhere. Millions and millions and millions of Americans. Voting Americans.

It’s this extremity that is my point here. Why do self-proclaimed “Christians” say America is a “Christian” nation, when they only define “Christian” as their own specific denomination? After all, their denomination didn’t make America alone - but they utterly reject the very souls of their fellow Americans of EVERY other denomination.

And where this becomes really relevant is regarding the 1st Amendment. Specifically, why does any self-proclaimed Christian support it? Why should people who are going to hell, people who don’t believe exactly, precisely as you do about Jesus Christ, and who are therefore fake Christians, be protected in their beliefs by law? After all, this isn’t a trivial matter. These people are supposedly going to hell - hell - forever, because of their stubborn refusal to reject their wrong beliefs. So why should such people be given Constitutional protection to practice heresy? How could people so completely apart from God be ever trusted with the morality necessary to take part in American society, if the entirety of their lives is simply sending them straight to hell no matter what they do? Why should that be protected?

In fact, couldn’t that be said to be the root cause of the collapse of American society today? That people who have proven themselves to be literally lost souls, disconnected from God and bound for hell because they don’t believe exactly as YOU do, have been Constitutionally protected to practice their false, so-called Christian faith, a faith that YOU believe is literally equal to Satan worship because YOU believe it leads directly TO Satan - because it’s not exactly what YOU believe? Because that’s what you believe about other denominations, right? That they are going to hell. Right? So if that’s what America really stands for, protecting THAT, they why do you call yourself an American? Why should you be a part of a country that protects THAT? Isn’t your support of America therefore heresy in itself, and literally the protection of satanic practices?

To those of you who think, at this point, that I am trolling, I have a one-word response: Islam. Muslims are invoking this 1st Amendment of ours to infiltrate our country. They promote terrorism, they teach the enslaving and killing of non-Muslims, they are pushing to replace American law with their own Sharia law, and they are proving - with blood and ceaseless horrific acts all over the word - that they are dead serious about their intentions. And in America it is the 1st Amendment protection of religion - alone - that they are able to hide behind, and not be tagged as a terrorist organization.

So how is this possible if we are a “Christian” nation? If we have one, unified, Christian background that we can point to, to define what a religion is, and isn’t - even if just the single basic idea that a religion cannot include killing non-believers? Well perhaps it’s because we are NOT a “Christian” nation. We are a Constitutional nation based on rights granted by God - but that’s it. After that, we are a nation of Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Anglicans, Calvinists, Presbyterians, Methodists , Pentecostals , Mormons, etc., - and EACH ONE believes that ALL the others are living lives that are so completely evil that not only are they not Christians, they do not even deserve the love of God, and instead are going to receive eternal hell for their beliefs.

So no wonder the Muslims can exploit the 1st Amendment - Christians don’t even believe in it! The 1st Amendment stands for respecting what no self-proclaimed Christian actually respects - other people’s religions. IF, for example, there was a common ground to Christianity, and that accepting that common ground was accepted by ALL Christians as acceptable to God and would establish salvation for a person, then the 1st Amendment would make sense. Then it could be applied as a test to other religions. Then various Christian faiths would be seen as diverse, beautiful variations on one basic theme that united people and enabled them to find an approach that personally appealed to them.

But it’s that very concept that is held as anathema to virtually every single person who call themselves a Christian - and by doing so, means only their denomination, and by that, means that all members of any other self-proclaimed denomination is going to hell.

Given all of this, is there any wonder that so many young people in America hold “Christians” in contempt, and seek meaning in communism and Islam and socialism and nihilism and Satanism and drugs and money and sex? Because they read the Bible - at some point, they all do to an extent - and they read about Jesus, and every one of them, in some way, is touched by Jesus’ love. Not because of them, but because of Jesus’ infinitude. And then, at that moment, the absolute ferocity of the people who claim to be Christian hits them - and they walk. Worse, they become bitter that the love they felt and couldn’t describe, the tenderness inside that seem to hold so much promise, was turned into a threatening weapon before their very eyes and pointed back at them.

So yeah, then they attack marriage. They attack decency. They attack morality. They attack everything they see as perverting the deep love they felt for a moment, the divine touch of God that made them see, for a moment, the possibility of a greater life beyond this one. And like most angry people they throw the baby out with the bathwater, wrecking precious things as well as themselves in their rage, and by doing so make themselves vulnerable to wolves who want their support in tearing down this precious country and destroying it.

Which brings me to my final point - God is not mocked. Instead of demanding isolated perfection, maybe we need to get to the root of the problem, which is assessing value. Do we look at the field of mud, or the one small flower? Do we choose to believe in Jesus Christ in such a way that does that? If so, why? None of us is our religion - each of us CHOSE our religion, picked it out from all the others, and said, “I’ll take that one for myself.” So if you’ve chosen a religion that isolates and cuts off, that builds a high fence from which you can preen while 99% of the world goes to hell forever except, of course, you - is that God’s way? Or is it your way? Jesus said not to forgive seven times, but seventy times seven times. Does that sound like God is looking for a way to make sure the maximum amount of people fail? So why should we follow such an approach?

And for the Bible thumpers, consider this - the Book you are willing to use to justify dismissing people as hell-bound with is one of many English versions of a compilations of books, ALL of which were written in other languages, and which were all further selected - by voting - in order to specifically support the formation of the Catholic Church. Which means that if you are Protestant, you are accepting a Catholic creation, and no matter what, you are ignoring many, many, many other books which did not make it into the Bible because of the vote of the people who were serving Emperor Constantine who conveniently "converted" only on his deathbed.

Which is fine, if you want to do that. But it also means that other books left out, and other translations of words and phrases and meanings, are not irrelevant, if the Book is what you want to use to claim that people are damned. Because when you damn people, they tend to want to defend themselves. And the fact that books or translations which would support their position exist, but have not been included in the Bible, is going to matter to them a lot, since their souls are at stake.

We are facing a Constitutional crisis in this country. Our Constitution protects religion, but that very Constitution is being invoked to protect its gradual overthrow, literally reversing meaning after meaning after meaning which was clearly meant and intended to be a certain, specific way by our Founders. It is my belief that if Christians can’t even accept some fundamental basis of acceptance of each other that includes acknowledging being saved, but rather insist on definitions and requirements that result in throwing each other into the pit, that there is simply no way to fight back against the perversion of the meanings of the Constitution that we are experiencing today. Because quite simply, America ultimately relies upon the Grace of God for her protection. But if her people reject that Grace by turning on each other, then nothing can save the country. If however they repent their arrogance and humble themselves, nothing can destroy this precious country, which truly is the bastion of freedom for the whole world.

How such unanimity is to be achieved, however, I have no idea. Because if history shows us anything, it’s that it simply can’t be done - mainly because people don’t want it to be done. Therefore, I suggest we pray for it, because it seems that’s the only way it can happen. It worked for the people of Nineveh, and it can work the same way for America. It’s not too late.

And remember, I am not talking about non-believers here. I’m making this really easy and simple - I am talking about people who ARE believers, but who do not believe exactly as YOU do. And if you still have any remaining doubts about the legitimacy of this problem, Jesus addressed this situation directly at Mark 9:38-40, which reads:

“Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”

“DO NOT STOP HIM,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, FOR WHOEVER IS NOT AGAINST US IS FOR US.”

Whoever is not against us, is for us. Period. Telling other Christians they are going to hell is not accepting that they are "for us."

But one thing is for sure: Muslims ARE "against us" by the direct teachings of Islam. And Islam is here - now.

Christians denominations are religiously balkanized, and this prevents the establishment of a unified, stable, legally-binding American definition of “religion” that could be used to stop the terrorism of Islam from being protected by the 1st Amendment. Lacking this not only enables terrorism, it also enables liberals to protect Muslims by completely avoiding the murderous realities of Islam - literally in the name of American freedom. This is obscene and it MUST stop, or America is doomed. The definition of religion under the 1st Amendment CANNOT be allowed to include any organization or religious teaching that advocates killing, harming or enslaving non-believers, or replacing American law with anything else. Period.

But if there is a correction Christians must first make to better follow the teachings of Christ, then that’s where this change needs to start. Because once that is done, the politics that naturally flow from that correction will be supported by the Grace of God - which is the true protection of America - and which will never fail us if we do our part by, at the very least, stop damning each other to hell. So I propose that the test of whether we are following Jesus’ actual teachings is whether an enemy can take advantage of our mutual animosity in His name, in order to pervert our own God-given rights into being used against us. Because (in my humble opinion) Jesus did NOT intend His own teachings to result in the destruction of America. And so if that’s what is happening - and it obviously is - we’re getting something seriously wrong and we need to correct it immediately.

Their argument for this, however, is actually a LIBERAL argument. Because liberals believe that people who believe that Jesus Christ is their savior are Christians - period. And so they lump ALL forms of this belief together as one. Then actual Christians reference this LIBERAL description of themselves to call America a “Christian” nation.

Hmm...

(1 Jn 4:1-3a)
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God.
(1 Jn 5:1-4)
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the parent loves the child. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For the love of God is this, that we obey his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome, for whatever is born of God conquers the world. And this is the victory that conquers the world, our faith.

It seems that John affirms the underlined.

Are you a Mormon?

Is that why you are attacking Christianity and America?

I know that you promote the Mormon religion as being a Christian denomination, when in reality it is an entirely new religion, a polytheistic religion, and is not considered Christian by any Christian denomination, not the Catholics, or the Baptists, or Methodists, or the Orthodox, or anyone.

....BOTH Catholics AND Protestants ALSO believe that the other is going to hell! And for what? For not believing in FURTHER details about Jesus EXACTLY as they do. Because what I described - ALL OF IT - is NOT enough to ANY of them.. it gets worse, because Protestantism is broken into innumerable sects which also believe that about EACH OTHER - not just about Catholics...Catholics ONLY mean Catholics are Christians, Baptists ONLY mean Baptists are Christians, Lutherans ONLY mean Lutherans are Christians, Anglicans ONLY mean Anglicans are Christians, Calvinists ONLY mean Calvinists are Christians, Presbyterians ONLY mean Presbyterians are Christians, Methodists ONLY mean Methodists are Christians, Pentecostals ONLY mean Pentecostals are Christians, Mormons ONLY mean Mormons are Christians, etc., etc., etc.

You've been drinking too much kool-aid.

I agree wholeheartedly with your essay. The concept of "Christian Nation" in most Americans' minds is contradictory with their religious beliefs.

I don't believe there is precedence for deciding that a particular belief system doesn't count as a religion under the First Amendment. There is, however, precedence for denying members of particular sects from engaging in certain behaviors even if they claim those behaviors are part of their religious rites, etc.

I seem to recall that certain "religions" claimed that taking psychotropic drugs was one of their religious rites, but they were denied this practice.

I believe that it will be difficult to claim that Islam is not a religion. The best we can hope for is that certain Islamic practices such as Sharia courts, jihad, etc. will be denied.

Unfortunately, that knife has two edges. It is the same knife that will allow Christians to continue to call themselves such, but deny them the ability to oppose gay marriage and other liberal programs.

**So there’s NO true common ground among so-called “Christians” - NONE. Because it’s only lip service when you believe the other person is actually going to writhe and scream in unbearable torment for the rest of eternity because they don’t agree with you. That’s called a “litmus test.”**

You are a very confused individual.

The position I have heard most often is just the opposite, that Christians are Christians. My Sunday School class is a mix of former Catholics, former Baptists, former Presbyterians, and other crossovers, and no one is particularly concerned about those details as meaning they were not real Christians. In public, my experience has been the same. The bottom line: I do not see the problem you think you see.

The bottom line: I do not see the problem you think you see.

I think that his view of the problem is overly influenced by reading FR religion threads. It's why I seldom look at them anymore.

But Talisker, the rest of the world is not like that, at least not the rest of the world I know.

"But BOTH Catholics AND Protestants ALSO believe that the other is going to hell!

I have seen this so often on FR I can hardly believe it sometimes! Whenever I see it I post this, but it doesn't seem to sink in:

Porthos: You know, it strikes me that we would be better employed wringing Milady's pretty neck than shooting these poor devils of Protestants. I mean, what are we killing them for? Because they sing psalms in French and we sing them in Latin?

Aramis: Porthos, have you no education? What do you think religious wars are all about?

"Here’s a perfect example - a Catholic FReeper was recently denouncing Martin Luther King as a non-Christian because of all of his various failings in deeds and belief. In addition to sleeping around on his wife, and hanging around with communists, she pointed out several supposed beliefs MLK had about Christ that are non-traditional and even contrary to common generally-accepted teachings.

To her accusations, I laughed out loud! Why? Because SHE’S CATHOLIC. Which means that even if MLK was a perfect Baptist, never cheated on his wife, and was sterling in every possible way, politically, morally and religiously - she would STILL believe that he was going to hell!"

BTW, Talisker, I might be wrong, but I think you're speaking of me, here. It would have been okay for you to name me.

It is true that MLK denied the Virgin birth, the Second Coming, and the existence of hell. He also believed that Jesus "attained" divinity through "moral struggle."

It's strange you would laugh at that and blow it off. You see, to BE a Christian, one has to believe in the tenets of the religion. And the tenets espoused by MLK were contrary to Christianity---his beliefs directly denied basic Christian doctrine.

Also, I'm not Catholic. And I don't believe Catholics are going to burn in hell.

So much for all of your assumptions.

Oh, nonsense......

People are not only being really honest when they behave or say the way you think they ought to and if they tell you different, they are lying.

I've stated before and will again, that there are Christians and non-Christians in every denomination. The only thing that varies from church to church is the percentages.

I don't know the denominational affiliation of most of the other born again believers on this board, nor do I care.

If they adhere to Scripture over tradition, then there's common ground, contrary to your belief otherwise.

All I see happening here is pushing a one world religion.

No thanks.

I don't know the denominational affiliation of most of the other born again believers on this board, nor do I care. If they adhere to Scripture over tradition, then there's common ground, contrary to your belief otherwise. All I see happening here is pushing a one world religion

Exactly metmom.

And to the argument that "everyone" believes Jesus is the source of salvation, ask a Catholic or a Mormon what constitutes salvation. Then ask a born again Christian. Do you think they will give one answer, or three different ones?

Pope Francis (the "vicar of Christ on earth") says even atheists can go to heaven.

Pope Francis: All go to Heaven, even atheists

Here is something even more outrageous.

The Bible tells us in 1 John 1:9, Hebrews 11:6, 1 Timothy 6:12-16, and Revelation 3:20 and other places to seek our Jesus personally and in our hearts. To have Him save us, to confess our sins, to repent, and then to seek a relationship with Christ.

But pope Francis says seeking a personal, direct, and immediate relationship with Christ is "dangerous."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSQfr8ikPk4

Talisker, please don't post here stating that everyone believes the same thing. They don't.

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