Posted on 12/10/2014 6:32:20 AM PST by marshmallow
"Christian unity" is one of those terms that stir up a whole spectrum of—sometimes emotional—opinions.
On the one hand, we know that Jesus prayed to the Father concerning future believers "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you" (John 17:21a, NIV).
On the other hand, charismatics know it is almost pointless to discuss the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12, 14) with Baptists or most anyone else from a mainline denomination. And Protestants of just about any stripe get riled up when they hear Catholics talking about papal infallibility or their adoration of the Virgin Mary.
It's on this latter point that Rick Warren, senior pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, and successful author, has waded into a hornet's nest of controversy by telling a Catholic News Service interviewer that Protestants and Catholics "have far more in common than what divides us" and that Catholics do not "worship Mary like she's another god."
Regarding Warren's view that Catholics do not worship Mary, Matt Slick, writing on the website of the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry, goes into great detail with material from Roman Catholic sources that say Mary is "the all holy one," is to be prayed to, worshipped, that she "brings us the gifts of eternal life" and she "made atonement for the sins of man."
If that's not putting her in the place of Christ as a god-like figure to be worshipped, then what is it?
"We believe in Trinity, the Bible, the resurrection, and that salvation is through Jesus Christ. These are the big issues," Warren says. "But the most important thing is if you love Jesus, we're on the same team."
To Warren's point about being on the same team, Slick.....
(Excerpt) Read more at charismanews.com ...
Notice it does not say "bow down AND serve them", it says "bow down NOR serve them". That's the second commandment still even though Catholics have removed it.
And you can show scripture reference to the Christmas tree where exactly?
I'd likely still be an RC if I had been born into this cult. It really meets all of man's carnal needs to be religious.
No Catholic is a Christian?
You might want to read post #354 by Elsie. Kinda knocks down the idea you’re suggesting.
And Jesus' reaction to the coin in Matthew 22 -- for the sake of context, remember that there had been a Jewish revolt only a few years previously over the issue of Roman military standards and coins. Some of those who "left Him and went their ways" no doubt considered Jesus guilty of idolatry.
"20 And Jesus saith to them: Whose image and inscription is this? 21 They say to him: Caesar's. Then he saith to them: Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God, the things that are God's. 22 And hearing this they wondered, and leaving him, went their ways."
In that vein, consider what how the Jewish people dealt with the issue of idolatry once the Romans had fully taken over and placed statues everywhere. The Talmud and the mishna both have some pretty interesting stuff regarding how the Jews dealt with statues in bathhouses, arenas, street corners, etc -- wen confronted with the reality of Pagans amongst them in earnest, the Jewish people were forced to abandon some on their odd rules (not taking a road that leads to a town that has an idol in it, for example). The rabbis mostly concluded that it was permissible to use bathhouses (which invariably contained a statue of Venus), to read the inscriptions on the bases of statues (which implies an interest in the work itself, not an aversion of the eyes when passing by), and to use streets that had Pagan temples on them (never mind avoiding sections of road). The Jews mostly came to a logical conclusion (the hardliners aside, who stuck by the old rules such as destroying a statue isn't good enough, it must be sunk in the Dead Sea)-- that intent is key. Unlike in the ancient period, the statues the Romans put up were not instrinsically associated with idol worship, and thus were not anathema.
Among the Jewish people themselves, the seeds of this can be seen in God's commandments regarding both the Bronze Snake in Numbers 21, and the Ark of the Covenant in Exodus 37.
Bronze Serpent in Numbers 21,
"5 And speaking against God and Moses, they said: Why didst thou bring us out of Egypt, to die in the wilderness? There is no bread, nor have we any waters: our soul now loatheth this very light food.
6 Wherefore the Lord sent among the people fiery serpents, which bit them and killed many of them.
7 Upon which they came to Moses, and said: We have sinned, because we have spoken against the Lord and thee: pray that he may take away these serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
8 And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live.
9 Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed."
Description of the Ark of the Covenant in Exodus 37,
"6 He made also the propitiatory, that is, the oracle, of the purest gold, two cubits and a half in length, and a cubit and a half in breadth.
7 Two cherubims also of beaten gold, which he set on the two sides of the propitiatory:
8 One cherub in the top of one side, and the other cherub in the top of the other side: two cherubims at the two ends of the propitiatory,
9 Spreading their wings, and covering the propitiatory, and looking one towards the other, and towards it."
Jesus Himself gave an explanation of the Bronze Serpent in John 3 14-15,
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him, may not perish; but may have life everlasting."
This entire argument is summed up by Wisdom of Solomon 16:7,
"For he that turned himself toward it was not saved by the thing that he saw, but by thee, that art the Saviour of all."
>>Jesus instituted the Petrine Office in the person of Peter (Matthew 16:18)<<
Only in Catholic mythology.
Did anyone ever bow down to the Ark of the Covenant?
Were they ever commanded to pray to these things?
Did God ever command Christians to make an image of Mary?
You wrote: ‘Catholic encyclopedia admits you can’t justify this false dogmas with scripture or “tradition”.’ Where does that website say that? I see it says no direct reference in Scripture, but we admit that is true.
My statement was “Catholics selected the writings of the Bible.” The point was that if you hold Scripture as infallible, you are holding a part of Catholic Tradition infallible. Which is what the teaching on Mary is too - a result of the inspired teachings of early Church fathers and beyond.
You may choose to discount this Tradition and to not venerate Mary, or even dishonor her. But do you desire other people to pray for you? Do you believe in Heaven? If you answered “yes”, who is the person who can pray for you that is closest to The Christ? Mary.
"For he that turned himself toward it was not saved by the thing that he saw, but by thee, that art the Saviour of all."
But yet, the "thing" remains. Do you understand?
Again, I explored the protestant route for a while. I even married a protestant. No thanks. I just don't agree with protestant interpretations.
And, unfortunately, through the years, I also found that protestant interpretations vary wildly. Once I got into a very heated discussion IN PERSON at a protestant church with a group of protestants berating another protestant for having a conservative opinion on a political issue. I was the only person who stood up for that one protestant against the others.
After that experience, I didn't just return to the Catholic Church. I went running screaming back to it. So, I returned to the Catholic Church BECAUSE I think for myself. If you're trying to convert people, I suggest that you begin with the people in your own churches.
You're not Catholic, so you don't know what you're talking about. You're merely parroting what I guess protestants believe about Catholics.
“Your post 352 completely takes the legs out of any arguments catholics have regarding Peter being the first pope.”
Actually it does nothing of the kind. We’ve been over this again and again. Here’s an example of the constant problem of Protestant anti-Catholics trying to discredit a faith they know almost nothing about:
This was posted:
““If we are bound to follow the majority of the fathers in this thing, then we are bound to hold for certain that by the rock should be understood the faith professed by Peter, not Peter professing the faith.” — Speech of archbishop Kenkick, p. 109; An inside view of the vatican council, edited by Leonard Woolsey Bacon.”
Now, this quote is in several places on the internet with EXACTLY THE SAME OTHER QUOTES. It is repeatedly cut and pasted by people who have clearly never read the original source - as I have - or who are deliberately hiding what else comes after it in the same book. Is there any point to rehashing what has already been shown to be a misrepresentation? The whole book is available online for free. Has Elsie ever read the book? I seriously doubt it. And therein lies the problem. Elsie couldn’t even spell the archbishop’s name correctly! All he/she did was cut and paste it from other source which also had it misspelled. What’s the point of trying to engage someone in conversation about a source he/she clearly can’t get right?
“I’ve noticed old vladimir998 has no reply when confronted with the facts.”
Again, what’s the point of trying to engage someone in conversation about a source he/she clearly can’t get right?
“To be quite honest...catholics have written so much over time I’m not sure they even know what they’re supposed to believe.”
That’s hilarious coming from you considering your own predicament. Elsie believes all of the dead believers are in “sleep”. They’re not in heaven (Elsie said Mary is not in heaven for instance). Is that what you believe? If you believe differently than he/she does then clearly one or both of you is wrong. Which is it? So what is a Protestant to believe? How is it that you all say you believe in sola scriptura yet you can’t agree on what the Bible actually teaches? Most likely - as has happened before - I will not get any answers to those questions. And if I ask them again, then the Religion Moderator will tell me I am badgering you. There’s too much fear here on the Protestant side to allow Protestantism to be exposed as the man-made thing it is.
“I’d love to know how catholics continue to cling to catholicism when the claims upon which it is supposed to be based repeatedly are shown to be false.”
None of them have been shown to be false. Again, look at the rest of the book which contains Kenrick’s quote (please note the correct spelling of Kenrick).
“Ready for the strawman argument and personal attacks.....”
Oh, so any response will be that, right?
I discount this false teaching regarding the "immaculate conception" as it contradicts Scripture. You cannot point to Scripture and justify it. You cannot point to "tradition" and conclusively derive this about Mary.
I do not worship Mary as catholics do.
There is nothing in the Word to indicate Mary is the closest to Christ. That's nice man-made thinking, but not Scripture.
I do believe in Heaven and will be there one day as I believe Jesus died for my sins. He and He alone justifies me. No one else.
Yes, other people, here on earth, do pray for me as instructed by the Word.
I discount that Mary plays a role in salvation or any other aspect of my life based on the Word. We are never taught to pray to her.
However, Romans 8:26-27
26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
Research the fifth marion dogma.
Totally false. There are numerous references of God commanding not to make images as representations of either Him or anything else to bow down to. Here is another example.
Leviticus 26:1 "Do not make idols or set up carved images, or sacred pillars, or sculptured stones in your land so you may worship them. I am the LORD your God.
And another.
Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
>>Among the Jewish people themselves, the seeds of this can be seen in God's commandments regarding both the Bronze Snake in Numbers 21<<
You may want to understand what was done to that when the Israelites began "venerate" it and to burn incense to it.
2 Kings 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.
>>and the Ark of the Covenant in Exodus 37.<<
The Ark did NOT represent God. It was where He said He would meet them and speak to them.
Exodus 25:22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.
Trying to imply that the Ark was some sort of representation of God is error and excuse making. NOT WHERE in scripture does God condone making any representation of something that should be "venerated" or bowed down to. In fact He condemns the practice over and over.
Mary gave birth to Jesus.
Jesus is God.
Therefore, Mary is the mother of God.
Whatever.
No, I understand the context surrounding those prayers. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that protestants misunderstand, since protestant interpretations of Scripture don't consider the historical context surrounding it. So, it seems you also look at a prayer without putting it into proper context as well. Just as a person might read a paragraph in a book without reading the rest of the book.
I'm not familiar with the prayers you and your protestant friends are posting. But, because I'm Catholic, I know that the prayers aren't intended as worshipping Mary as a god. Any request of the Blessed Mother to "do" something is intended as a request for her to help make it happen by advocating on our behalf.
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